[jawang]

edit: added the one word in bold to clarify this post

this has been a pet peeve of mine for a while. I've always thought it was strange how some people can go out, listen to their favorite music on a rig, then buy the gear simply because they liked what they heard.

music perception is one of the most subjective things possible. especially, when there is a potential placebo effect from the visual impact of new gear. even listening to the same song twice in a row with the same setup can yield different overall impressions. mood, alertness, physical state, mental state, etc. can all affect how good music sounds to you... this doesn't sound like a good source for testing high end gear

so why do some people only listen to music when trying out expensive headphones? I mean, if I had money for something like an HD800 I would go to a demoing store with some boring ass sources, mostly difficult hearing tests.

for example, i'd probably have a bunch of sin waves on a random playlist (to check frequency response and to see if I could hear the largest frequency ranges consistently) and some random playlists with various frequency samples at different bitrates (to see if I could hear the higher bitrates consistently). then fill out the rest of my playlist with specific bass, mid, high, etc. samples to evaluate sound signature as scientifically as possible

maybe even lug along an oscilloscope if I had one. or better yet, a high quality ear microphone + laptop so I could perform some legit tests

 

[Scott_Tarlow]

because the music is why you buy the headphones....

 

[AtomikPi]

This belongs in the sound science forum.
Maybe some people care about how their music sounds subjectively to them and couldn't care less whether the square wave is perfectly square. The headphone with the best measurements does not necessarily sound the best.

 

[Drubbing]

I can only assume you're trying to be funny, because that's the dumbest thing I've heard. Demoing phones/gear with your own music and preferably a known source you're familiar with, is the commenest sense way of deciding whether you'll like it or not.

But, of course, testing out the specs and generally fart arsing about, listening to the equipment and finding out what it can and can't do instead, will tell you far more..?

 

[Sherwood]

Your tests would give you figures for things like impulse response, impedance curves, freq. response, etc. These are important measurements, but you can find them online right now if you want them. No need to lug testing equipment to a store to test it there.

Moreover, what you can discern well as a testing instrument is not frequency response from sine waves, it's preference and emotional impact.

Let testing equipment perform tests, and let your ears listen.

 

[Barry]

The same reason that people test drive a car on city roads and highways rather than a controlled driving track. They want to make sure that the car is right for them based on how it feels during day-to-day driving.

If you can listen to abstract sources and make the translation to how the phone plays music, then more power to you. While I have not tried it, I would not think that I could make that translation. I don't think that most people can. But then again, you have to listen to the phones that you buy, not most people.

 

[lwrs10]

I dont listen to sine waves, frequency sweeps, or any other garbage when i shop.
i bring what i want to use to compare........and walk away with light pockets...lol


i bring my ipod loaded with songs i like to listen too. I try the same songs on everything.....

 

[Sakhai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif this has been a pet peeve of mine for a while. I've always thought it was strange how some people can go out, listen to their favorite music on a rig, then buy the gear simply because they liked what they heard. music perception is one of the most subjective things possible. especially, when there is a potential placebo effect from the visual impact of new gear. even listening to the same song twice in a row with the same setup can yield different overall impressions. mood, alertness, physical state, mental state, etc. can all affect how good music sounds to you... this doesn't sound like a good source for testing high end gear so why do people listen to music when trying out expensive headphones? I mean, if I had money for something like an HD800 I would go to a demoing store with some boring ass sources, mostly difficult hearing tests. for example, i'd probably have a bunch of sin waves on a random playlist (to check frequency response and to see if I could blind test the largest frequency ranges consistently) and some random playlists with various frequency samples at different bitrates (to see if I could blind test the higher bitrates consistently). then fill out the rest of my playlist with specific bass, mid, high, etc. samples to evaluate sound signature as scientifically as possible maybe even lug along an oscilloscope if I had one. or better yet, a high quality ear microphone + laptop so I could perform some legit tests

So what are you suggesting? Making purchase decisions by NOT trying out products?

Music is an interaction of various sounds. Testing out a headset by playing a single notes, sine waves, frequency samples ...etc is for retards.

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry /img/forum/go_quote.gif The same reason that people test drive a car on city roads and highways rather than a controlled driving track. They want to make sure that the car is right for them based on how it feels during day-to-day driving.

That's a bad comparison. Appearance, personal preference, and other subjective things are important when buying a car for personal use. Straight, linear performance isn't the clear cut factor for most consumers.

Headphones should (hopefully) only be evaluated based on performance. The equivalent example would be a professional race car driver picking a car for a race. Does a professional racer "take a car out for a ride on the highway/roads" and decide if he likes it? I don't care about nascar/etc. so I don't know, but it would shock me if he these people didn't test cars in actual race conditions on special tracks.

Buying hi-fi headphones is equivalent to buying a race car. Peformance should be the primary concern, so performance is what should be tested, not subjective preference. unless you have money to burn and you just want to find a way to spend it



Listening to music to pick headphones is fine for low-mid range headphones, since personal preferences should be more important than performance. But when you get into high end gear, you are paying thousands of dollars for miniscule differences. The tiniest mistake in your hearing evaulation could affect a decision which involves several thousands of dollars.

Look at how many people buy high end headphones and then decide they don't like them a week or month later (check the FS forum).

 

[aristos_achaion]

I totally agree. I also request all my potential girlfriends submit a cover letter, references, and possibly standardized test scores, to make sure we're emotionally compatible and work well together in bed.

In all seriousness, it makes perfect sense to buy headphones based on what your music sounds like through them. Maybe it'd be more effective to A/B them with a known quantity (say, your current favorite pair of headphones), but it's the difference between knowing and feeling.

I'm also a tea snob. Some tea people like having thermometers to test the water, making sure to get, say, Dragonwells at ~160 degrees F, and maybe red tea at exactly 195 degrees. I've trained myself to know when the water's right by the bubbles forming in my kettle and what the water feels like trickling down my finger. Maybe it's less scientific, but I think it's more rewarding.

 

[tvrboy]

Uh......... this is a good idea. Obviously you wouldn't listen to JUST frequencies and sine waves, but I would do this if I had the proper test equipment. When I demo'd Grados I had some trouble telling the difference between certain models. I wish I had some bass tones so I could see which had the better bass extension and rolloff. There are some headphones that sound great at frist but are really annoying when you own them for a while. Doing this kind of measurement demo might help you find out those annoying characteristics before you buy.

Why do so many audiophiles hate measurements and testing? Isn't it kind of vain to think that your personal impressions can never be wrong? And these same people who think their subjective opinions on K1000s and Qualias are always right tell people who like Bose headphones that their subjective opinions are always wrong! If we're going to say that measurement is pointless and opinion is the only thing that matters, then how can we ever say one headphone is better than another?

 

[Cankin]

What do I need if I want to measure how comfortable does a headphone feel on my head?

 

[aristos_achaion]

I'd disagree with the assertion that hi-fi gear is about objective performance, not subjective appeal. Assuming you're using the headphones to listen to music, not analyze sine waves, there's really no point to problems you're not going to notice with your music. High-end headphones are for people whose experienced, jaded ears can pick out and appreciate the minuscule differences high-end gear is made for. If you notice flaws during intense testing that aren't ever apparent in your listening, what's the point? Bragging rights?

I can see sine-wave, pink-noise and such testing being useful to confirm problems you've begun to suspect during music listening, and I imagine it'd be important to bring a wide variety of your music, but at the end of the day, it's about the music, and about whether you like the phones. Not what they can do. What you like. What you like is sacred.

EDIT: Speak not of blind tests, for such is forbidden and may get this thread y-closed.

 

[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I demo'd Grados I had some trouble telling the difference between certain models. I wish I had some bass tones so I could see which had the better bass extension and rolloff. There are some headphones that sound great at frist but are really annoying when you own them for a while. Doing this kind of measurement demo might help you find out those annoying characteristics before you buy. Why do so many audiophiles hate measurements? Oh wait, I forgot. It's because they are too prideful to be wrong about anything ever!

So you couldn't hear much of a difference, so you would've liked tests to tell you what the differences were? What a crock. It not about being right or wrong, it's about what you like.

Testing scientifically won't tell you anything about how a phone Sounds, that why you have ears.

If I was to buy a set of phones because the FR says I should like them for bass, but my ears tell me they don't, then that is just dumb.

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your tests would give you figures for things like impulse response, impedance curves, freq. response, etc. These are important measurements, but you can find them online right now if you want them. No need to lug testing equipment to a store to test it there.

That's completely false. Your individual head shape, skin oils, bone density, hair texture, hearing ability, etc. will affect all frequency perception on an individual basis. Probably moreso than any cable or tweak (I'll probably be shot for saying this).

My point is that if you play short and specific bass samples on repeat, (for example, the heavy bass sequences in "The Dark Knight Soundtrack") you will be able to discern whether you like the bass response with as LITTLE subjective bias as possible

obviously you can't be 100% objective, but the point is to minimize prejudices to maximize your testing effectiveness