[lejaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif that's right. lejaz,it seems you are deep in the neutral camp. you like the to keep the chef's own colouration and not adding anymore of your own, just like listening to a certain recording like it was made...getting the artist's prespective. that's also cool, and even sound like the right way to go. BUT...as much as i tried to walk in this way, I can never get rid of the eager to a rumbling bass and tipped up treble. from the beggining, that's what I considered as high end sound.

I can understand that perspective. To use another analogy, it's like having a sweet tooth and adding extra sugar to everything. But still, I would prefer to taste the food/beverage first.

 

[joomongj]

I enjoy both. Coloured cans especially bright ones tend to tire me in the long haul so I switch over every now and then.

 

[sampson_smith]

I like "musical" 'phones, which usually fall under the "colored" variety, as best I can sum up.

Btw: I like your headphone collection, plonter! RS-1's, D5000's AND HD650's. You must be "done", or at least plenty satisfied with that array, I expect.

 

[aimlink]

A coloured presentation can be exciting but I've come to realize that it's fatiguing. Additionally, a coloured can will likely not be an all-rounder unless the person listening is hopelessly in love with that coloured sound.

I prefer the coloured sound at times, but I yearn for neutrality at times. I need to get me another set of neutral cans.

So which are the genuinely neutral cans?

Of course, be that as it may, the recordings we listen to are so often far from neutral.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lejaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif The thing with colored headphones it that you may be adding 'seasoning' before even tasting the food! I prefer to hear the music how the artist/producer intended it to sound....at least at the first listen.

You probably won't be hearing that unless you have the same exact gear and speakers they mixed it with, and you're sitting in the same room.

There's no such thing as "neutral," it's all relative. An orchestra might play in Hall A where some frequencies are emphasized, and then play in Hall B where others are more emphasized. Everything's relative, including the headphones you then listen on. In that case, some "colored" headphones and gear might reproduce certain frequencies *better* than a neutral set-up for any particular performance, while the neutral set-up might diminish already too-diminished frequencies. So which one is more "accurate" in that case? The colored gear! So it's all relative.

Imo, neutral is mostly a marketing term to mean "flat," or "as flat as possible." But with headphones, even that's subjective, because even the most "neutral" headphone isn't actually flat, it has spikes in certain freqs to accommodate the listening physics, proximity to ear, etc. So like I said, it's mostly a marketing term to push a certain kind of sound (i.e., one that's "flat"). Some people prefer that sound, others don't. But imho there's nothing inherently "better" about it. It's just another sound for someone to prefer. The fact that most people have to *train* themselves to like a "neutral" sound is very suspicious to me, but even though it might have its benefits, I don't think it's necessarily the "holy grail" that is automatically "better." It's just different. And I'm not talking about detail in any of this, only the frequency response.

 

[plonter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sampson_smith /img/forum/go_quote.gif I like "musical" 'phones, which usually fall under the "colored" variety, as best I can sum up. Btw: I like your headphone collection, plonter! RS-1's, D5000's AND HD650's. You must be "done", or at least plenty satisfied with that array, I expect.

it is a very nice trio... in fact I could live only with the D5000 and the RS1, i must admit that the HD650 will probably go soon. right now I am after a PS1000 ,I simply must have them as I admire the RS1.

 

[lejaz]

I wonder if the most 'neutral'/accurate headphones that portray the music with very little 'color' would not also be considered musical. If the music you're listening to is well recorded/produced then I think they would...or no?

 

[aimlink]

There are so many very useful endeavors that you need to train for to reap the returns. I'm not at all suspicious about having to train one's ear for appreciating a neutral/flat sound. It may well be a good thing since it's exchanging one habituation for another. A typical listener is likely habituated into listening to music in a very coloured and artificial way.... then he joins head-fi and wishes to keep going with the general colour, but loves the details.

 

[plonter]

for the sake of a reference, "neutral" means the finished cd, as i goes out of the recording studio, like the soundman intended it to sound. we can argue on what is neutral without stopping, but the reference should be the finished recording and getting the most neutral gear in order to get the sound as close to the recording.

 

[pearljam5000]

i like dead neutral.
i want to hear the music as the musician intended it to sound,not to distorted(color is distortion to me)
but at the same time it should never sound like the K701,which truly doesn't sound neutral or natural,it's fake forced"neutral' sound is a coloration on it's own right.
but i mut say i loved the GS1000,and they were colored as hell.
but very musical and pleasing,but if i had to choose just one, then i'd choose a neutral and natural sounding headphone

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif for the sake of a reference, "neutral" means the finished cd, as i goes out of the recording studio, like the soundman intended it to sound. we can argue on what is neutral without stopping, but the reference should be the finished recording and getting the most neutral gear in order to get the sound as close to the recording.

Ah... well in that case Plonter, I'm all for neutral. However, so many, including myself, are habituated into that coloured sound.

So, should I get a DT48E and do some listening?

What headphones would others consider to be neutral? Which is more neutral? The HD600 or 650 (I'm going to repurchase one of those). What about the AKG K701/2's?

Even then Plonter, even if you think you're OK with the cans, the DAC and Amp combo may be colouring the music!! We keep reading about head-fiers graduating to tube amps to get that warmer sound etc.

 

[sampson_smith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lejaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder if the most 'neutral'/accurate headphones that portray the music with very little 'color' would not also be considered musical. If the music you're listening to is well recorded/produced then I think they would...or no?

That's a tough call... It appears that "musical" is often synonymous with "fun" or "aggressive" (which is the case with relatively well-colored Grados), so perhaps neutral, flat 'phones should not be termed "musical" despite reproducing well-recorded music perfectly fine. It may be a matter of defining precisely what "musical" really means in this context, so sorry for bringing up an old standby that is rife with ambiguity. Hmmm...

plonter: So, interesting that the HD650 is the next to go. What would say are the main "deficiencies" that will prevent you from keeping it, if you choose to sell it? (I've been thinking of getting myself a pair, so, as I dig my own Denons and Grados, wanted to make sure that it would be compatible.)

 

[plonter]

I got to the conclusion that I simply can't listen to electronic music with flat presentation. I really believe that this music is supposed to sound bass heavy coloured as hell. like it is meant to be played with the D5000

rock music and such is tollerable for me in a flat EQ but electronic I just can't listen to without a really heavy colouration. it is just not fun at all for me.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lejaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't understand the whole 'color' thing with music. No one would walk into the Louvre in Paris to look at the art masterpieces wearing colored glasses(at least I hope not), yet for some reason people want to add color to their music. Maybe it's just me, but the only color I will intentionally add is some extra bass...but not that often.

lejaz, your posts, especially this one, come closest to my sense of the neutral vs. colored issue.

Another way of looking at "neutrality" is that it is not locked in to a colored-to-neutral continuum or spectrum. Instead, it's a discrete span that ranges from less to more neutral.

Thus, neutral 'phones are in a category of their own, with the express purpose of presenting sound with the least distortion possible.

In this category, the "best" 'phones are the most neutral.

Returning to lejaz's analogy with paintings in a museum, we might say that neutral cans are like a viewing "stage" that displays the music as it was meant to be heard. The best stages are the ones with as little distortion as possible.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif for the sake of a reference, "neutral" means the finished cd, as i goes out of the recording studio, like the soundman intended it to sound. we can argue on what is neutral without stopping, but the reference should be the finished recording and getting the most neutral gear in order to get the sound as close to the recording.

But the recording on what gear? That's the point I'm making. The CD could have been mixed with Speaker set X, and it sounds the way the artist and producers want it to sound. But if they used Speaker set Y instead, they might have needed to tweak certain things to get it to be what they want (or obviously it could be any component in the chain, I'm just trying to simplify by using the speakers as an example).

So you get the CD, you load it up into your "neutral" set up, and the artist listens and says, "that's not how I intended it to sound at all." That's because *ALL* gear colors the sound. Unless you're using the same exact gear to reproduce it, I don't see how it's automatically going to be the same. Your "neutral" gear is (or could be) as "colored" relative to the gear they used to mix it as anything else. The equipment that is slightly "colored" might in fact color the CD to sound the way the artist heard it on their speaker X and intended it to sound more than the "neutral" gear does. It's all relative!