What makes one portable player better than the other?
Feb 18, 2011 at 2:51 PM Post #106 of 129
 

Quote:
Signal processing is not limited to equalizers.
 



 

 
If you want to remove the analog low pass filter from the equation or remove oversampling efficiency from the equation, you might as well as end up comparing just the DAC chip inside the player. IMO, what really matters is what i hear at the end. Everything in the intermediate stage doesn't matter.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 3:10 PM Post #107 of 129
Well, I'm interested in the comparison among non-EQ'd players. It's not going to make me not enjoy what I've got. It might or might not influence my next purchase. But I really don't see the harm in looking at the data.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 4:13 PM Post #108 of 129


Quote:
But what is the difference between objective and subjective tests?
 
Well, since the original poster wanted a technical explanation, it means technical and objective tests instead of non-technical and subjective impressions.
 
Is it ONLY the methology?
 
Well, the methodologies are completely different from each other.  In an objective test, one is going to have to have, ideally, say, $20 000 of laboratory equipment.  In subjective impressions, anyone can just plug in headphones and then fire up the computer to log onto Head-Fi.
 
So it is possible to ignore things such as that two persons might preceive the same sound differently?
 
You nailed it.
 
I mean this as connected to interpretation and preferences, not how sounds are percieved by the ear.
 
I am not sure if I understand this sentence.  The original poster wanted a technical explanation for why one MP3 player is said to sound better than another MP3 player.  That means the interpretation and preferences of technical data.  There is a strong correlation between technical data and sound quality.  But, like I have already written many times previously, there is a ban on presenting this evidence.
 
Just as the taste of something sweet can produce a certain reaction, a sound can produce a similar reaction. This is something we have to be aware of.
 
Like that brick example and like that silly-tweak example.
 
The scientist always has to be aware of his own subjectivity and how it might affect the tests.
 
This is why he will go for objective tests instead of subjective impressions.
 
Especially when it comes to things that are connected the senses and perception.
 
This is why he will go for objective tests instead of subjective impressions.
 
What I meant about the brick is that perhaps it is good to let the guy buy the brick and then convince him that there is no difference. It might only be then that he learns a lesson.
 
The vast majority of the time, no one will ever be able to.  Therefore, he will never learn the lesson.  Therefore, he will keep spending his money on the silly tweaks and keep hearing improvements in sound quality.  The proof?  Please look at Head-Fi’s Cable forum.


 


Quote:
If you want to remove the analog low pass filter from the equation or remove oversampling efficiency from the equation, you might as well as end up comparing just the DAC chip inside the player.

I was talking about signal processing that the user can turn on or turn off.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 5:48 PM Post #109 of 129
@drez & @Danneq I agree the subjective side is important, but I have to side with Anomaly2. Subjective options are much less helpful to the person who started this thread and in answering their original question.
 
Car magazines for decades have published performance numbers. They buy their own instrumentation, rent the test tracks, and are reasonably methodical in running the tests as fairly as possible to make comparing automotive performance both easy and valid. And outfits like Consumer Reports also try hard to provide comparable test data when possible--like driving all the cars they test on an identical several hundred mile route in similar ways to evaluate the real world gas mileage. Information like this is incredibly useful to a great many people trying to decide what car to buy.
 
The above is arguably a far better indicator of a cars performance, fuel economy, braking, etc. than a bunch of subjective opinions about those same things. A person can say "my new Honda is a lot quicker than my friend's Chevy". But what does that mean? Has he driven both under similar conditions? Or was he just a passenger in the Chevy? Is one an automatic and the other a manual? In the same way it's really hard to compare casual fuel economy claims. Those who drive aggressively in the city might get half the MPG of others.
 
Do the test numbers completely describe a car? No they don't. There are lots of other more subjective factors like comfort, convenience, features, looks, colors, the feel of the steering, ride quality, etc.
 
But several people in this thread have argued, in various ways, the "numbers are useless", and only subjective opinions matter. I completely disagree with that. I maintain subjective reviews for audio gear are often misleading to others and make valid comparisons, at best, very difficult and often impossible. But the right objective data makes comparisons far easier and much more valid.
 
If a bass-head compares two headphones and raves about the one with exaggerated bass, while slamming the more neutral one, and fails to disclose he likes way more bass than most people, how useful is that review to someone else who doesn't know the person or what either headphone sounds like?
 
And worse, if Person A describes the sound of his new iPod, and Person B describes the sound of his new Cowon, how is Person C supposed to figure out which one is better for them when their tastes are different than both of the reviewers. And the reviewers tastes are different from each other making comparisons difficult at best? And they may each like different kinds of music, use different EQ options, etc. It quickly turns into total confusion rather than any sort of obvious answers.
 
I agree if there was some common language we all knew, agreed on, understood, and used properly to describe subjective sound quality it could be a big help. But just look at the wine industry. They've tried to do that and the result is almost laughable. It's not a realistic answer to this problem.
 
The only way I can see subjective opinions being reasonably valid for the purposes of comparison is if the sample size is sufficiently large, the sample group sufficiently diverse, and every participant listens to the exact same music, at the exact same volume, with all the same settings, and answers the same standardized subjective questions. Then you'd get some statistically meaningful subjective results which could be compared. This, by the way, is essentially how food companies try out new products, soft drinks, etc. But it's obviously impractical for what we're discussing here for any sort of widespread use.
 
Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and reasons for buying a particular product. But when they share their opinions on the web, for all to stumble across, they should make it clear it's only ONE PERSON's subjective opinion and not FACT that Product A is better than Product B unless they have some valid objective data to back up the A vs B claim. But that's often not what happens.
 
This site, and many others, are full of comments and reviews with statements like: "this product has far more low bass extension than that product." And many of those claims can readily be proven wrong using objective methods. So what's wrong with proving them wrong and trying to make choosing products a bit more factual and grounded in reality rather than emotion, hype, psychological bias, and web-viral myth?
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 7:32 PM Post #110 of 129
At least in Head-Fi, people don't comment about a product unless they have heard it personally. When they review a product, they throw the comparison with their existing gears. That is one thing i like in head-fi. I know it is a subjective opinion. But, it is very useful for people like me who just started this hobby and don't have the luxury of trying out multiple products.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 7:41 PM Post #111 of 129


Quote:
At least in Head-Fi, people don't comment about a product unless they have heard it personally. When they review a product, they throw the comparison with their existing gears. That is one thing i like in head-fi. I know it is a subjective opinion. But, it is very useful for people like me who just started this hobby and don't have the luxury of trying out multiple products.



That's not always true. I think it was on a Denon thread recently that someone admitted they were just passing on what they'd read on another thread and that's not the only case.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 7:55 PM Post #112 of 129
@nwavguy you are right about the problems with subjective reviews, but is there a practical way in which to test audio parameters beyond frequency response and distortion?  (I am asking as I personally don't know)  Can these adequately describe
 
sound features such as harshness, smoothness, thick/rich vs. thin/brittle, soundstage beyond channel separation, dynamic vs. flat/dull?  If this were available and reliable in its representation of subjective experience this would be very useful.  Again I look forward to your review/link.
beerchug.gif

 
Feb 18, 2011 at 8:20 PM Post #113 of 129
At this point I'm starting to believe that every review on Head-fi is useless. Yes, we want to try to maintain as objective reviews as possible. However, objective reviews can be just as bad. I like what Lubanja said earlier:
 
 
Quote:
To get an accurate reading, one would have to take the design of every human's ear into account. Surely one person's ear is denser in one area than another. Peaks and valleys being slightly different could potentially make a difference in sound. So if technicality is to be taken seriously, it needs to be done to the highest level. Hence, objectivity is really subjective unless just looking at the computer reading. Even then there is altitude, air pressure, oxygen levels to take into account. If a truly accurate picture is to be painted, of course. Any other test is just subjective, no matter how it is put. Arguing with a blind monkey is a good way to pass the time, I supopse.

 
 
It's true. If we all hear differently, as well as having different preferences, it can be hard to make sense of any review. Even pure information and numbers, frequency response graphs, and things like that won't mean anything if no two humans hear the same. Yes, I know we all hear basically the same, with a minor difference here or there. I'm taking this to the extreme. But it seems like almost everyone in this thread is doing so.
 
I do like the method mentioned earlier about "subtracting" the two samples and listening for the difference. This is a fantastic way to be sure of a cable or something like that. But it's really only useful in determining if there's a difference present, and most of the time we know that are are different and we're trying to decide if that difference is for the better or not.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 8:48 PM Post #114 of 129


Quote:
At this point I'm starting to believe that every review on Head-fi is useless.



Subjectivism has its place in reviews of audio devices.  All we are saying is to not go overboard.  For MP3 players, for example, subjectivism has its role to play in describing the ease of use, the firmware’s stability, the visual appearance of the device, the legibility of the display screen, the quality of the equalizer, etc.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 8:52 PM Post #115 of 129
I meant as far as sound... It should go without saying that build quality & appearance aren't quite subjective.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 9:00 PM Post #116 of 129


Quote:
At this point I'm starting to believe that every review on Head-fi is useless. Yes, we want to try to maintain as objective reviews as possible. However, objective reviews can be just as bad. I like what Lubanja said earlier:
 
It's true. If we all hear differently, as well as having different preferences, it can be hard to make sense of any review. Even pure information and numbers, frequency response graphs, and things like that won't mean anything if no two humans hear the same. Yes, I know we all hear basically the same, with a minor difference here or there. I'm taking this to the extreme. But it seems like almost everyone in this thread is doing so.
 
I do like the method mentioned earlier about "subtracting" the two samples and listening for the difference. This is a fantastic way to be sure of a cable or something like that. But it's really only useful in determining if there's a difference present, and most of the time we know that are are different and we're trying to decide if that difference is for the better or not.


Correct.  This doesn't even take into account different production runs, user methodology, gear synergy, etc.  Take the M50.  One could be a white box.  One could be a blue box.  One could be a white box made 2 hours prior to the other white box where they began running out of glue or whatever.  One M50 could have fresh pads.  Another could have worn pads.  One listener could have had a bad day and another won the lottery.  One could be listening w/ a Clip+ that is plenty loud to them.  Another through a Burson 160.  Somebody listening to Britany Spears at 96kb.  Another to Steely Dan's Gaucho at 24bit.  One likes a loose droopy fit w/ their pads and headband.  Another likes it taut and slightly forward of their ears.  One swears by EQ, bass boost and BBE.  Another swears they will never touch it.  The variables are near infinite and that is just dealing w/ one headphone, the M50.  Invariably all that can be done is build a personal experiential data pool and use other forum members as reference points in relation to your findings.  You extrapolate data, triangulate your points of reference and formulate conclusions based on your personal criteria, values and intuitive equations most of us never even think about.   
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 9:10 PM Post #117 of 129


Quote:
I meant as far as sound...


One could subjectively tell readers one’s impression of the sound produced by using the equalizer and possibly other signal processing that is available.  And if there are problems like hum or hiss using certain headphones, this should obviously be mentioned.  But please do not try to sound like Milton or Shakespeare when describing the sound quality when all the signal processing is off.  In other words, do not measure with your ears.  If you want to measure, then measure with laboratory instruments.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 10:26 PM Post #118 of 129


Quote:
Correct.  This doesn't even take into account different production runs, user methodology, gear synergy, etc.  Take the M50.  One could be a white box.  One could be a blue box.  One could be a white box made 2 hours prior to the other white box where they began running out of glue or whatever.  One M50 could have fresh pads.  Another could have worn pads.  One listener could have had a bad day and another won the lottery.  One could be listening w/ a Clip+ that is plenty loud to them.  Another through a Burson 160.  Somebody listening to Britany Spears at 96kb.  Another to Steely Dan's Gaucho at 24bit.  One likes a loose droopy fit w/ their pads and headband.  Another likes it taut and slightly forward of their ears.  One swears by EQ, bass boost and BBE.  Another swears they will never touch it.  The variables are near infinite and that is just dealing w/ one headphone, the M50.  Invariably all that can be done is build a personal experiential data pool and use other forum members as reference points in relation to your findings.  You extrapolate data, triangulate your points of reference and formulate conclusions based on your personal criteria, values and intuitive equations most of us never even think about.   



very well said
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 10:55 PM Post #119 of 129


Quote:
At least in Head-Fi, people don't comment about a product unless they have heard it personally. When they review a product, they throw the comparison with their existing gears. That is one thing i like in head-fi. I know it is a subjective opinion. But, it is very useful for people like me who just started this hobby and don't have the luxury of trying out multiple products.



LOL, you haven't been here long enough.
 
Feb 19, 2011 at 2:45 AM Post #120 of 129
Well even though I've supported the "subjective perspective" here on this thread I feel inclined to post some objective information regarding cowon.Unlike any ipod that exists,my cowon plays FLAC and APE files.Whether these formats sound better than mp3 or the apple formats is irrelevent to ME.This is because my music collection is mostly is FLAC and APE.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top