[grawk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree with the bolded. What should be done is a "clean room" effort, ground up design. If it turns out to be similar after the fact, determined by a third party, that's just what it is. There should be no examination of prior art to decide one's own effort. It's contamination, otherwise. If it's identical, that'll raise some eyebrows, but who knows.

How are you disagreeing with me?

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland /img/forum/go_quote.gif The OP basically asked for Larry to document his mods (to what degree is uncertain), with the implied intent of cloning.

I don't think that was really implied - and his request only seems impolite if you're already aware of Larry's position on "proprietary information".

 

[holland]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif and his request only seems impolite if you're already aware of Larry's position on "proprietary information".

I don't know anything about Larry, or any of the other politics surrounding him or others. I actually don't care for his product, and would never buy one.

You're right though, I misread the OP. With all the talk of cloning, it somehow became intertwined with the OP in my mind.

 

[holland]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif How are you disagreeing with me?

By saying "Figure out a different way" requires a direct examination by the designer of the competition.

A "clean room" effort is done without such details because knowledge of the competitor's design influences the effort either consciously or sub-consciously.

 

[JonM]

Totally outside opinion here; Id feel abit more comfortable buying Db's if i knew exactly what it did. Right now all I know is its a recable + wood.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif Larry, thanks for stopping by. This thread has been most interesting to read through. Your support of the community is much appreciated and obviously integral to the survival of the forums. I can understand that you do not need to give DIY advice or disclose any aspects of the designs of your products. You already give enough details about the product for potential customers to make well informed purchases. Also, I completely agree that it is morally wrong for someone to come and steal your ideas. It isn't right, but these things happens. And when that day comes along where some fellow posts "proprietary info" about your modifications, what do you expect the Head-Fi management to do? I would certainly be disappointed if they should delete the posts (which would mostly likely be the case) unless protection of your intellectual "rights" is part of the sponsorship agreement. I know I am treading on very dangerous ground here, but please understand. No one has the (legal) obligation to respect your wishes unless the designs are patented. I know I am not alone in thinking that competition is a good thing. Without outside competition, the consumer is usually the one to lose out. I'm certainly not saying that you, Larry, make bad products or that you're complacent in any way. Quite the contrary in fact! With competition, it might drive you to make even better products at more competitive prices. Under pressure, you may be able to develop methods to streamline the production of your current works of art. I don't know about you, but I work much more effectively when under pressure. Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. As for those who want to know exactly how Larry does what he does. Buy a pair of his headphones and take them apart. There's nothing stopping you from doing it. Just do the right thing and don't post them online. If you feel like taking on Headphile, bring it on. I'm sure it'll really drive the headphone modding market.

He gives none. You have no clue what he does besides the recabling & woodies.. In regards to his Darth mods.. If you pay 340 plus you should know whats being done to your headphones.. He doesn't need to go into detail, but a quick explanation would do.. How about getting your car fixed & the guy fixing your cars tells you nothing? Personally I don't believe in 'secrets' in regards to this field.. But keeping it secret does add mystery & intrigue, & makes it sound special & unique. I'm sure many use Larry's same 'secrets'.

 

[holland]

JonM, the enclosures are bigger too.

Study speaker design. There are a number of freebie sites with that information. Pay close attention to the enclosure design and dampening materials and methods. It might be good to read up on infinite baffles as well. Unless Headphile has information from Beyer (doubtful) regarding the driver design, he would be tuning by ear.

I don't own a Db, but that'll pretty much cover about 90% of it. The rest would be materials selection, and possibly, the "de-foaming" of the driver.

Once you have decided on a Darth, what you are essentially doing is giving Headphile the drivers and saying build me an enclosure. Honestly, he can tell you all sorts of stuff after that, either truth or half-truths. Some people will get it, some people won't.

If you are able to get it, then you should be able to look at the DT770, the DT880 and the DT990. They supposedly share the drivers, and you should be able to answer why they differ in sound. At that point, you can probably have a meaningful conversation with Larry and figure out for yourself whether or not it's worth it.

 

[The Pieman]

I find this very odd, this thread. A lot of the posts that have been made, question Larry's right to business as he sees fit. If he doesn't want to tell anyone how he creates the Darth's that is his right. If he doesn't want to give DIY advice, that is his right. I can understand this as he would get inundated with email asking questions as well as probably undercutting his own business.

This is not a commune where Larry has to hand out free love just because others are members of the same commune. Get a grip, this is how the guy makes a living!

I note that is the usual people questioning a MoT's business methodology. If one doesn't like it shop elsewhere.

I have looked at the Headphile website many times with the thought to purchase, but never have. Some of the messaging about the operating rules could be bit gentler, i.e. it is not how I would address the same at work. But it is Larry's website. He is king of his domain.

My 0.02 worth.

cheers
Simon

 

[Lad27]

Anybody else noticed that very few actual owners of Darths are participating in this debate?

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pieman /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find this very odd, this thread. A lot of the posts that have been made, question Larry's right to business as he sees fit. If he doesn't want to tell anyone how he creates the Darth's that is his right. If he doesn't want to give DIY advice, that is his right. I can understand this as he would get inundated with email asking questions as well as probably undercutting his own business. This is not a commune where Larry has to hand out free love just because others are members of the same commune. Get a grip, this is how the guy makes a living! I note that is the usual people questioning a MoT's business methodology. If one doesn't like it shop elsewhere. I have looked at the Headphile website many times with the thought to purchase, but never have. Some of the messaging about the operating rules could be bit gentler, i.e. it is not how I would address the same at work. But it is Larry's website. He is king of his domain. My 0.02 worth. cheers Simon

This thread isn't a critisism of he doesn't give DIY or step by steps.

It's his general rude and big-headed ways.

I mean come on, he claims to have created the woody.

 

[wrecked_porsche]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lad27 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anybody else noticed that very few actual owners of Darths are participating in this debate?

And just woot do you mean by that?

The way I see it, there are a lot of sour grapes floating around here in this thread...

Can anyone say "green eyed monsters" ?


There! I said it.

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's his general rude and big-headed ways. I mean come on, he claims to have created the woody.

Rude? I've dealt with few people who were pleasant and accommodating.

He might have been preempted on creating woody by the likes of Sony and Audio-Technica, but I'm not aware of anyone who was building DIY woody headphones before he did, and certainly not to the level of quality (though quite a few have followed in his wake, coincidence?). I helped him develop his first woodies (for the CD3000) years before you were ever a member here.

Larry's dedication to his craftsmanship and customer service make him one of the last businesspeople on Head-Fi I would have imagined to come under such absurd and ridiculous scrutiny, for normal business practices.

Making a DT770 sound better is not magic, I assure you (and no, I am not privy to Larry's methods). If you want to do so, just use your brain and the resources at your fingertips (i.e. the internet), and I am sure any barely competent human could get quite a good idea of how to proceed, or at least experiment. And just as the guy who set out to duplicate a local restaurant's "secret" BBQ sauce, perhaps you will find an even better "recipe."

 

[Sheynkman]

Um....right.

Although I am curious to know whats inside, I could not replicate Dbs even if I was given step by step instruction by the man himself. I don't know about all those that care for the info from the DIY perspective, but I sure as hell know that I don't have the time or the desire to mod headphones. I want a product that sounds great....the thought process ends there and if Larry can make that happen for me then great!

I think that most that (like me) are curious just wanna know for knowing reason alone. It makes me feel happy that a man spent years in a shop perfecting sound through some sort of changes. I think Larry saying "I made 29 changes to the design" is pretty much enough.

As far as the quoted post below,

You are wrong. Although the mods themselves are not unique to Larry (re-cable, woodie, etc) the combination certainly is. Go to your fridge and pick up a can of soda....the ingredients are right there....you just can't replicate it. Coke does it with trade secrets because that way they will not be knocked off in some 3rd world country AND there is no worries about patents running out. Larry uses some sort of proprietary combination of known mods to get his unique sound. You can't ask him for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif What he does is NOT new. People can easily come across this stuff before he did it. In reality, his ideas were most likely taken from others. I mean come on, removing excess fabric from over a driver? Is that really that revolutionary? He also likes to claim he invented woodies. I'm sure Grado, Audio Technica and many others would care to disagree. What about a recable? Nope, nothing new there. Resonant dampening? Done and done, many times before. Also, according to the law where Larry resides, he has no legal right to these ideas. And I doubt he ever could, since they are well known, and not unique to him.

So what if he is a jerk to someone that asked him a question once? He is an artist that takes care of business. He creates products and provides customer service for them. He does both those things well. What is the purpose of this discussion anyway? There have been so many personal attacks on Larry in this thread its childish.

The original poster asked because he wanted to know that there was more to the product than what was in the pictures (wood and cables). A response to the tune off "Larry doesnt reveal such information but he most likely cleans up the sound by modification to the padding yada yada yada but in the end his combination of mods is proprietary and he does not discuss it"

There...1 post. Closed thread. If you dislike his product/service/self...don't buy it.

And as far as any devious plans to clone the man's work....come on. Headphile sells to online audiophile forum dwellers. Copying his design would be frowned upon by the ENTIRE market for the product unless it sounds significantly better....but then its not copying in the first place is it?

 

[carlineng]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheynkman /img/forum/go_quote.gif And as far as any devious plans to clone the man's work....come on. Headphile sells to online audiophile forum dwellers. Copying his design would be frowned upon by the ENTIRE market for the product unless it sounds significantly better....but then its not copying in the first place is it?

I agree with everything you said except for this. If someone with the proper skill and inclination decided to copy Larry's design and undercut his business, I think the market would respond positively. As we have seen in this thread, there are plenty of people who aren't happy with Larry for whatever reason.

 

[Deathwish238]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bahamaman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Having just wasted the last 15 minutes reading through the various posts, I couldn't disagree more. On one side of the argument are those who believe that information is fungible, without any particular value and within the right of anyone to take. People in this group tend to believe it to be their legal right to download music in violation of the owner's copyrights, duplicate software that isn't licensed to them, and otherwise use anything they can get their hands on in the digital realm. Those in this group tend to be contemptuous of the idea of property rights and the concept of an individual's right to make a profit off his ideas. They criticize Larry for refusing to reveal some aspect of his proprietary knowledge, arguing that he has some responsibility to the head-fi community. On the other side are those who actually understand that information has value, particularly information that offers its owner a competitive advantage. They understand that Larry runs a business, whose sole beneficiary is (and should be) himself and his kids. Larry owes us nothing but his time, talent and knowledge, for the acquisition of which we are obliged to pay a price. Should we not be willing to do so, we have no right to it.

Wow way to try and make a stereotype. I don't actually know anyone that things downloading musically illegally or pirating software is in their legal right.

Also, digital media isn't really related to this situation. This situation is person A has an idea that isn't protected so person B can legally come in, copy it, and sell it.

And no, Larry doesn't owe us anything at all. I can't tell someone if they should be nice or condescending or not

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif It may or may not be moral, as morality is relative. It would be rude. If you want to teach people how to do something similar, put in the time, and figure it out for yourself without copying larry, since he's asked you to not do it. It's simple respect.

I couldn't agree less. Why should anyone research what has already been researched? That's just backwards. You patent it, then you share it. It helps everyone. It's a waste of someone's energy, time, and resources to research something that's already been done. At best it's a good learning experience, but that is all.


I guess what I think is this. Headphile cares more about money than about helping the audio industry. By giving up his data, info, and research he risks someone copying him and making money. Of course if it's patented they'ld have to change it for better or for worse, but a greater risk none the less.

However, I'm so used to the car audio industry where on the rise companies give huge indepth public info about how they went about making a specific product. If you've ever heard of Elemental Designs you may know what I'm talking about


But hey, it's the USA...no one forces anyone to do anything