[Naegis]

 
G'day headfi'ers!
 
OK, the title is a bit of a joke. And as with all jokes, there is a core of truth in there.
 
I'm a n00b here and here is my first small review/comparision (hope you like it) and a request for help!
 
I've been watching this forum for about 2 months now, since I am searching for a highend replacement for my recently deceased Sony MDR-ED21LP earbuds. 
 
I have a nice hifi installation at home, but have no experience in de head-fi department. I did not post this in the generic "i'm new, want advise"-thread because i find it too generic.
 
 
Small review 1: Sony MDR-ED21LP

---

Until recently I've been very happy with my (i guess considered lowfi?) Sony MDR-ED21LP earbuds. This is my evaluation after years of listening to them (I am including this, since I use this one as a reference):
 
+ I like their fit in my ears, they just don't fall out (a problem I have with most, actually all I've ever tried earbud-type headphones (not considering in-ear)).
+ Their isolation is moderate, but certainly not as closed as most in-ear headphones, which makes them good in traffic: you'll still hear stuff, which is kinda important when you're crossing the street
+ Although you can hear outside noise, I do not experience any huge loss in bass (which is common thing amongst headphones without huge isolation)
+ I experience them as focussed on the mids/vocals, which I apparently find important (see below) (I know lots of people consider them bass-heavy, due to their 'bass-boost' semi-in-ear bass extension-thingies)
+ The above average bass (for earbuds at least) seems to support the body the mids, which results in an engaging, full-bodied, fun sound to listen too.
+ They are versatile: I like to listen to many different kinds of music, from metal to Norah Jones, from drum 'n bass to industrial gothic and EBM, from Prokofiev to Pink Floyd. It can handle them all!
+ they really shine on acoustic music (for instance, the softer tracks of Opeth, or pop-jazzy stuff like Norah Jones)
 
- They lack detail, compared to higher end gear, certainly in the lower and higher frequencies (That's also the biggest negative, certainly with acoustic music, where the feeling is in its subtilities)
- Sub bass frequencies are almost absent.
- Soundstage is not that big
- Annoying sensation in my ear after a long time of listening (something which seems to have increased overtime, the last couple of months it seems to occur earlier)
 
In addition they seem to be harder to get: I was used to them being available in every electronics store, but not any more.
 

---

 
Enter you guys.
 
I've used the few weeks to plough through the enormous heap of information, reviews and opinions you gathered here. Mainly looking in the portable section, among others, the brilliant mega-portable-shootout by Joker!
 
I established a shortlist on popularity and description of sound properties:
 
- Audiotechnica ATH-M50
- Sennheisers PX200-II
- Koss PortaPro
- Grados / Alessandro MS1 (due to there metal-qualities )
- Beyerdynamic DT-235
- ...
 
About a month ago I entered the local HIFI dealer, and listened to some headphones (sadly only one portable, the dealer is mainly focussed on non-head hifi), mostly to Senn's (HD650, HD600, HD555, HD800, HD4XX), Koss PortaPro & a Beyerdynamic DT-660 (not sure if it was a 660, it was closed at least).
 
Somehow I have this thing with most Sennheisers, although nice and obvious differences in quality, I find them to have the same sound signature, well defined bass, but bass more or less overpowering the mids, which I don't like, I guess I'm not really a basshead. Does anybody else has this?
 
The brilliant exception was the HD800 (I did not know its pricetag at that point ), which was very well balanced, very well detailed, huge soundstage, in short the best headphone i've ever heard (that's not saying very much though ), and it can begin to rival my home sound system (which is saying much, for me at least).
 
After all I read about the Portapro, I was genuinely disappointed at their sound (I listened to this one before I listened to the HD800, hence I was not biased). I listened to an in-shop setup, as well as to Apple Lossless tracks on my iphone, but found the sound to be muffled (It might have been that they still need burn in, but it was a listening model, so i guess, it had at least some basic burn in.) I really don't understand what the fuzz is al about...
 
 
Small review 2: Sennheiser PX200-II

---

Last week I ordered a set of PX200-II, dispite of them being Senns. In some graphs they appeared to have a different frequency response than other Senns, more balanced so it seemed. Here's my review of them after a few days of listening:
 
The first time I listened to them (on a train) they seemed to have no really noticable bass, sound was very 'trebble', but I could hear more detail than with my sony's. After a couple of hours listening, the bass has finally come out! 
 
+ I hear sub bass!
+ I really like signature of the bass and the huge detail in the bass (for such a small headphone), even in the sub bass zones. 
+ Overall detail is very good (for such a small headphone)
+ Highs are detailed, (but not as detailed as the bass)
+ Fits nicely, sits comfortably on my head
+ Isolation is good (I need some getting used to this, since I was used at hearing more of my surroundings.
+ no real sound leakage. I listened to it in a silence-coupe on the train, no one looked up or irritated, not even the old lady close by (ok, not much of a scientific approach, but it's kinda saying much, since most people come sit there for quiet time, and I've seen lots of situations where someone was urged to lower the volume or go sit somewhere else. )
+ compact, fits nicely in my bag
 
0 The volume-control halfway on the cord is not as bad as I expected it to be. I'm not using it (volume at 100%), but its pretty light, so not really much of a hassle. Maybe when you make quick, sudden movements, it will swing out, but I'm a laid back person
0 Harder to drive than my sony earbuds. Not really surprising actually, they need to move a little more air. But I didn't think of this before. It's not really a problem, it's just that the volume on my iphone is not halfway or less, but at 75%.
 
- Mids, at least vocal range, seem recessed. Although I do not have the feeling the bass is strong, it seems stronger than the mids. This differs per song, but certainly with metal (wall of sound) or with many instruments, vocals are in the background or blurring with the highs
- You can hear every detail of a musically complex track, but somehow it cannot master it. I'm not sure why this is, maybe its the soundstage, but I heard some people about it having a relatively big soundstage. It may also be the mids lacking again. I don't know. Anyone know what I mean?

---

 
I am returning the PX200's because of the recessed mids/lack of capability for complex music. 
 
But what now? I ask for your advise!
 
I'm in search for a headphone with:
- prominent mids/vocals (at least no lack of them)
- good detail, certainly in bass & mids
- moderate to good isolation (used outside, in the city, on the train)
- no / very little sound leakage
- size, preferably small, but a foldable full size would be OK
- needs to be driven from an iphone, preferably without portable amp
- price somewhere below $200
 
 
Before the PX200's I was strongly considering the M50's, but after my experience with the PX200's and the description of it being bass-heavy and mids being not its focus, I'm not sure anymore.
 
Can you help me?

 

[Naegis]

That's a pity, no replies...
 
what am I doing wrong here? Anybody?

 

[Marcus_C]

Views on the mdr-ed21, now that takes me back. I'm not even sure what their predecessors were called but they were the earbuds I bought for £17.99 in about 1999 from my local electronics store. I thought they were brilliant and they lasted surprisingly well. I notice they still have they same retail price nowadays. I did try a pair again last year and for cheap earbuds they are far from the worst out there. Are you after headphones or earphones? If the former I can't help at all, if the latter then there are oodles of options depending on what you're looking for sound wise, music you listen to wise etc...
 
Welcome to head-fi, watch out for the monsters and look after your wallet.
 
Happy listening! 

 

[Naegis]

tnx!
1999, that's around the time I first bought them. Obviously there are better ones out there, but for that price...
 
I'm looking for headphones, no earbuds or in-ears
Listen to all sorts of music. Lots of metal, but also jazz, rock, drum 'n bass, many more, so I need one which is kind of an allrounder.
 
Soundwise, since I don't have much experience in describing what I like: Intuitively I would say I am looking for a neutral character. I certainly don't like too much bass, but I DO like to hear all the bass, incl subbass. Based on some comparing of frequency graphs @headroom , I concluded that the px200-II had a relatively neutral response, hence I chose them. Now I listened to them I find the mids to be recessed / in the background. The bass is certainly very nice, much more detailed than my old earbuds.
 
Right now I think I should focus on strong mids. Trouble is I have no good headphone shop near me, so I need to order everything online. It obviously is hard trying to figure out which headphone to order and try, without hearing them. But the ordering, listening, not liking, sending back, waiting for your money to return process is not nice either.
 
I previously was looking at the M50, but the frequency graph shows lots of bass. (I know the graph doesnt say everything, but it seems not for me). I have seen it described as anything from bass monster to very neutral, so not sure what to expect. I am very curious for its sound
 
Also to mind came the Alessandro MS-1, which at least has prominent mids, and according to the description feels engaging/in your face. Sad thing, it's open, hence not very handy for the outdoors.
 
Do you have any suggestions?

 

[Marcus_C]

Quote:

Do you have any suggestions?

The only headphone i've heard about that price is the AT esw9a, they are brilliant as far as i'm concerned but I haven't anything to compare them to so can't recommend them. I'd give this thread a read: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/433318/shootout-69-portable-headphones-reviewed-bowers-wilkins-p5-sony-xb700-added-02-21, decide on one or two you like the look of, find out avilability etc, then maybe ask the OP about the finer points of them.

 

[chrisjackson]

Hmm. Maybe the issue is that we Head-Fiers don't have sufficient concentration span to read such a long title

I see from your first post you've seen ljokerl's thread. Of course there are omissions there; lots of other studio monitor type phones some of which are collapsible. Your budget seems pretty good. The issue for portables is often getting something compact enough, though if you're considering M50s...

Here's a couple brands not on ljokerls thread might be worth researching :
http://www.fischeraudio.com/series.php
http://www.german-maestro-shop.de/epages/61902279.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectID=6149810

Hope someone can chip in. Maybe try the "full size" subforum?

 

[Naegis]

yeah maybe a bit too enthousiastic, ah well...
 
thanks for the tips! i'll keep browsing, see what I can find.

 

[a_recording]

I can second your conclusion that the M50's may not be your best option for full vocals. I find the mids to be a little recessed, and to be honest, the overall signature a little too aggressive for me. I also would hesitate to describe them as portable.

Your description sounds like you might really enjoy the B&W P5's, though I don't think they are within your budget. They have a full, warm sound that is very mid-centric, though its tailored enough so that you won't miss any bass or treble detail. They are really surprisingly fast, isolation is great, and build quality is sweet. They are a sensible size as well. Again however unless you get something from the for sale forum, it'll be out of budget. I'm not sure where you can have a listen to them in the Netherlands though.
 
And welcome to Head Fi!

 

[Naegis]

Allright, let's forget about de M50 then good to hear a confirmation of my thoughts. 
 
the B&W P5's are indeed outside my budget, i did not read that part of Jokers thread, but the description sound promising! I'll see if I can find a local dealer.
 
What about the MS-1? I discovered someone at my workplace uses a PX100, which I don't really hear sitting next to him, even though it has an open design. I read that the MS-1's have even more sound leakage, but i'm wondering whether it might still be ok for my use. The isolation closed cans offer, for me, are meanly for keeping others happy not hearing my music. The sony's had far less isolation than the PX200's, and I was just fine with that. Hearing outside noise is ok, even handy on the workplace.
 
Does anybody know how the MS-1 sound leakage compares to the PX100's?

 

[trashbat]

Not sure whether to awaken this thread or start anew, but I agree pretty entirely with the OP, except I'm looking for more earphones.
 
I've had about ten pairs of ED21s, and just ordered a couple more - getting more difficult to find though. I wear them on a bike so anything closed (and I guess IEMs) is no good to me, but I've found these to be really good.
 
That said I imagine there are better options out there, so any pointers?
 
 

 

[Naegis]

 
[size=medium]

I didn't know this when I started this thread, but what I, and I guess you, are looking for is forward mids.
 
It was really hard for me to determine how the sound I liked (the one you hear on a ED21) was being described on this forum. I thought, and still think, of it as neutral or balanced sound, but apparently, in the greater scheme of headphones, neutral is referring to the a balanced frequency response, which in term, imho, results in relatively overpowered bass/highs. I guess this has something to do with the human ear not being balanced, in a frequency-response-graph-kind-of-way. (bare with me n00b talking here, hehe).
 
After some more research, I bought the MS-1's and am very very happy! I warmly recommend them to you (even though you're searching for earbuds)! 
 
i think the thing that the ED21 and the MS-1's have in common is the 'in your face' sound: you are on stage with the band. this works very well with almost everything, but large orchestra's. 
 
I bike with them myself, and it work pretty ok. Biggest disadvantage is the absence of sound isolation. You hear everything, hence when you bike in a busy city, the MS-1 will not work for you on the go.
 
Anyway, search the forums for 'forward mids', 'in your face' etc.
 
Hope that'll help you.
​

[/size]