What are head-fi members views on apt-x lossless codec (over bluetooth)?

[james444]

I personally don't think the result of 100 recompressions is relevant when we're talking about a single recompression for BT streaming. 
 
However, like I said in an earlier post, I won't even try to argue with serious audiophiles about this topic:

  And to those who hear a difference between FLAC an 320 kbit/s mp3 or think that 24/96 is a necessity, I won't even try to argue with you.

 
Likewise, if you can see a visual difference between a one time re-encoded JPEG at 95% quality and the original, I won't argue about that either.
 
What strikes me though, is that some of the same folks who loathe BT streaming on principle, seem to have no problems on the other hand with expensive "audiophile" DAPs like the Tera Player, which demonstrably change the original signal more than high-quality BT re-encoding. 

 

 

[inline79]

Hey guys,
Just want to thank you for this discussion - it takes a bit of courage to say "lossless isn't everything" on an audiophile board and made me feel better about not having apt-x.  I mean, these are bluetooth devices - you're mobile.  I know I can't hear the difference between lossless and 320mp3 when I'm in motion, and if I'm not moving, then I can use a wire!  So I also agree that standard A2DP via mpeg-2 or aac is fine for mobile bluetooth devices.
 
The only case I can think of is if you wanted to set up a wireless home theatre speaker - that should definitely be apt-x!

 

[inline79]

Follow-up: a few days after the above, I bought a Sennheiser MM450x which has apt-x. Then somehow my BlackBerry Q10 magically got apt-x. I gotta say, this is a killer combo. Can't go back to A2DP like in my car!

 

[ClieOS]

I think I have this discussion (somewhat) with James before. My thought is that the majority of the 'evil' in BT isn't inherently SBC (or any lossy codec for that matter), but more on poor implementation by various manufacturers. A lot of the older BT devices sound bad because either they uses low bitrate SBC (many are just 128kbps, 96kbps or even lower), having poor earpiece or poor amp section after the DAC (and sometime they didn't even have a dedicated amp section). Some of the newer BT headset still suffer from these problem because traditionally no one really care that much about the SQ over BT. Samsung, for example, pairs their good sounding HS3000 (with apt-X) with one of the worst sounding earpiece they have (EHS44). If they would have bother to use EHS64 instead, they would have a winning combo there. If I were in charge, I would have fire the guy who made the decision on HS3000+EHS44.
 
So the situation can get a bit more complex than saying "apt-X > SBC". In theory it is. but in reality it depends also on the hardware as well. An apt-X supported headset with poor hardware will still sound poor compared to a high bitrate SBC supported headset with good hardware. Manufacturer just need to learn to take BT more seriously, instead of trying to use 'apt-X' more like a marketing tool vs. a real solution. Also don't forget that BT has a 'high speed' mode since v3 that can steam data using WiFi layer so bandwidth might not be a limitation in the future (though currently hardware isn't there yet to utilize high speed mode). Who to say we won't have BT lossless in a couple of years if there is a demand for it? Well, it isn't impossible for sure.

 

[james444]

Yep, I have to agree that aptX alone doesn't make a winner. At least the Samsung HS3000 sounds good if you use it with a better third party earpiece, but for instance the HTC BH S600 (which supports aptX) sounds worse than some other non-aptX headsets, regardless of which earpiece is used.

 

[ClieOS]

James, you might want to look into the upcoming Sony SBH80 as well. It is the first Sony BT headset with apt-X support. I have a review sample here and overall it is better sounding than MW1. It still uses the MH1 transducer but retuned so it sounds more transparent / less warm than the MH1 on MW1. The only downside is that everything is integrated into a 'behind-the-neck' design, so no alternative earpiece or different wearing style. It won't be everyone's cup of tea for sure. But I reckon it is by far the best sounding BT headset Sony ever make and probably one of the best sounding BT headset in the market as well. Unfortunately my Samsang Galaxy Tab 7+'s BT function is acting up so I can't really test the apt-X yet, but I am planning to get a new smartphone soon and hopefully I'll be able to test the apt-X function by then. But even with just high bitrate SBC, the SBH80 is still quite impressive.
 
 

 

[andrewberge]

  [...]

 
Good point. It's not just about the codec.
I don't know which one it uses, but the Cowon J3 adds some pretty bad artifacts when playing over bluetooth, while my laptop sounds just fine.

 

[inline79]

FWIW I also agree that hardware can definitely affect the quality of a BT headphone. I mean after decompressing apt-x or A2DP/SBC, there's still got to be an amplifier section that can make or break the sound quality.

My personal example is my car, which has a spectacular sound system yet manages to ruin BT audio somehow. Without knowing the system architecture, it's not fair to blame the lack of apt-x, but it's all I have to go by as my BT source is apt-x.

 

[james444]

James, you might want to look into the upcoming Sony SBH80 as well. It is the first Sony BT headset with apt-X support. I have a review sample here and overall it is better sounding than MW1. It still uses the MH1 transducer but retuned so it sounds more transparent / less warm than the MH1 on MW1. The only downside is that everything is integrated into a 'behind-the-neck' design, so no alternative earpiece or different wearing style. It won't be everyone's cup of tea for sure. But I reckon it is by far the best sounding BT headset Sony ever make and probably one of the best sounding BT headset in the market as well. Unfortunately my Samsang Galaxy Tab 7+'s BT function is acting up so I can't really test the apt-X yet, but I am planning to get a new smartphone soon and hopefully I'll be able to test the apt-X function by then. But even with just high bitrate SBC, the SBH80 is still quite impressive.
 
 

Thanks for the heads-up! Yep, I don't care much for that kind of design, but will probably still try it out of curiosity for the sound quality.

 

[egosumlux]

you can find a cheap apt-x enabled phone to give it a try  here http://www.energysistem.com/es/products/auriculares/serie_auriculares_bluetooth/38731-energy_wireless_bt7_nfc_black

 

[yalper]

I have a review sample here and overall it is better sounding than MW1. It still uses the MH1 transducer but retuned so it sounds more transparent / less warm than the MH1 on MW1. The only downside is that everything is integrated into a 'behind-the-neck' design, so no alternative earpiece or different wearing style. It won't be everyone's cup of tea for sure. But I reckon it is by far the best sounding BT headset Sony ever make and probably one of the best sounding BT headset in the market as well. 
 
 

It looks Sead is hereinafter referred as a very famous guy and we won't be able to get these for $15 this time. I've been expecting a detailed review from you ClieOS

 

[ClieOS]

  It looks Sead is hereinafter referred as a very famous guy and we won't be able to get these for $15 this time. I've been expecting a detailed review from you ClieOS

 
$15 will be a very long shot this time. 

I am still waiting for the Xperia Z1 Compact to release locally before I'll do a full review (my current TX doesn't have apt-X support). But if you want to read something more technical, Rin already posted his review and he seems to be pretty happy with it.

 

[james444]

Thanks for the heads-up! Yep, I don't care much for that kind of design, but will probably still try it out of curiosity for the sound quality.

 
So I've had the SBH80 for a few days and surprisingly I liked the 'behind-the-neck' design much better than expected. Everything about the neckband and the button layout seemed very well thought out. The only thing I found missing was a carrying case, because even though you'll mostly leave the headset just there around your neck, at some point you'll need to stow it away and that's when things get a bit awkward with that kind of design.
 
Soundwise, there's little to complain about, they're very smooth and refined, though still a little bit too bassy for my taste (and maybe a smidgen too polite in treble). I ended up EQing their bass by -5db in quiet surroundings and by -2db outside, as well as their treble by +2db, regardless of environment. These rather small corrections for outside show that they're already excellently tuned for on-the-go use right out of the box.
 
The main reason why I didn't keep the headset in the end, was that it offers pretty much the same sound quality as my old BT-rig (Samsung HS3000 with short-cabled, EQed IE8), but the IE8 can be worn over-ear and stowed away more easily. Nevertheless I think the SBH80 are easily recommendable to anyone who's looking for a stellar sounding aptX BT-headset with very well thought out design.

 

[fnkcow]

Is Sony SBH80 using dynamic driver or balanced armature?
 
Says on official webpage its 5.8mm dynamic
http://www.sonymobile.com/global-en/products/accessories/stereo-bluetooth-headset-sbh80/specifications/#tabs
 
In its video ad its balanced armature drivers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09YP9SHz9Pw
 
Confused 

 

 

[james444]

^ The webpage info is correct.