[astromo]

This might be too pricey...but I like it:
...
Edit:
But the guy that dropped his measurement bomb on the Schiit happened thread didnt show up here? It saddens me...I even got some popcorn.

According to the dude himself:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-bifrost-multibit-dac.2319/page-7#post-63742

Jinjuku said: ↑
Jason Stoddard has responded to Amir's measurements. I don't think he understands:

1. What Amir posted
2. That Amir has replicated some of AtomicBobs measurements
3. That AtomicBob apparently has no issues with items like channel imbalance.
FYI they banned me from replying in the thread after my first reply.

Disappointing to read that if it's true.

So, now you've got this:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-bifrost-multibit-dac.2319/page-11#post-63908

... This should empower audiophiles to make more informed decisions. And have a more concrete dialog with the manufacturer should they want to. I am on no crusade against Schiit or its founder.
...
The data is published here. If they have an answer, they should come and address it here.
...

Read the whole thing. With such a warm welcome, it reads a bit like the nwavguy Asgard and the CA Yggdrasil deal all over again. However remember in those cases, it did result in technical improvement - so all to the good in the end. But with the path that all took, I can understand why Jason responded the way he did:

Sigh. Everyone has an opinion. AtomicBob has one opinion. There are certainly many more. Again, if you want to engage in a DAC discussion, talk to Mike Moffat. His thread is right here as well.

 

[FrivolsListener]

Read the whole thing. With such a warm welcome, it reads a bit like the nwavguy Asgard and the CA Yggdrasil deal all over again.

It does. I think he may point out something, but it may also be fixed in current firmware, and we know nothing of his methodology. What we do know is that he comes off as a d***.

 

[astromo]

It does. I think he may point out something, but it may also be fixed in current firmware, and we know nothing of his methodology. What we do know is that he comes off as a d***.

I'd agree. I see no need to go for the throat from the get-go and then try and dress it up behind a thin front of focus on objective measurement. However that's the internet age and it's an unfortunate fact of life that Mike and Jason have dealt with before. I'd expect that they'd rather focus on adding value.

 

[RCBinTN]

I think Mike is addressing glitches in the original firmware with the Yggy Analog #2 upgrade.
He posted that information a while ago...and discussed in an open manner.
He knew there were glitches...and now they're moving forward.

Bless his soul - amazing transparency from Mike on DACs (and Jason on amps).

Y'all gotta love that.
And the opportunity they give us to openly love, hate, or offer suggestions on their blogs here on Head-Fi.
Prosit,
RCB

 

[Rtg97229]

According to the dude himself:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-bifrost-multibit-dac.2319/page-7#post-63742


Disappointing to read that if it's true.

So, now you've got this:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-bifrost-multibit-dac.2319/page-11#post-63908

Read the whole thing. With such a warm welcome, it reads a bit like the nwavguy Asgard and the CA Yggdrasil deal all over again. However remember in those cases, it did result in technical improvement - so all to the good in the end. But with the path that all took, I can understand why Jason responded the way he did:

Amir is the one who does not understand. When taking measurements it is very important to have the details of the test setup documented (pictures are very helpful for repeatability as well!) and to take measurements that are relevant to the usage of the product being measured.

 

[johnjen]

When the reviewer said that the set screw in back was loose, by 2 turns, that told me that someone had either not assembled it properly at Schiit HQ or someone else had been in the unit.
And judging by the graphs I'd say that unit is defective/damaged, right out of the gate.

I REALLY doubt Schiit (or any manufacturer) would release any product with measurements like that, well maybe a 'here today and gone tomorrow slap it together and ship it' outfit, but that isn't what Schiit is, by any measure.

Something was definitely wrong and its hard to tell what is really going on from here.
And until the owner of that unit sends it back for an eval we may never know.

JJ

 

[DoubleIPA]

Mike's original quote: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what...#post-13778331

I admit it, yeah, the rumors of modification are true. Over a year ago, we implemented a software modification for the notch which used to be visible at -90db waveforms on all multibit DACs. This modification had a user at another forum in a state of high dudgeon that we could claim our units were high end with such a glaring anomaly. Of course he championed a much more expensive competing unit over and over again which was free of such pox. @atomicbob did not seem to be unduly concerned, measurements champ that he is. I didn't either, completely unconcerned about an inaudible flaw. I corrected it with software tweaks and we have a newly clean -90db measurement.

You may wonder, why didn't we announce it? Well, it goes like this: on our upgradable DACs, we from time to time make running changes, such as the software change above. A few are are compelled, due to parts end of life. The majority, however, are minor tweaks we make for the purpose of improvement. It makes little sense to call an Yggy back for a minor upgrade where $10-$15 worth of upgrades are involved, either for the client or ourselves. So we remain muzzled and do the upgrades when the units come back for more major upgrades.

On major upgrades, such as one which would involve new analog, digi, or input boards, we would implement the changes and let them sit several months to a year before announcing anything. This is so they have time to settle. This is the biggest reason to avoid purchasing a used Yggy. Not that I am attempting anything punative – it is just a system that works reliably, and is fairest on an hourly basis in client cost.

Exceptions are when we offer an accross the line upgrade such as the Gen V USB which pretty much fixes USB, at least until we come out with our own chipset implementation, which will take a year or two. Oops – never mind. These upgrades are inexpensive and effect huge change. So we offer them.

Are we going to offer analog upgrades? Is Apple going to upgrade their phones? Of course. The difference is that we will conceal our upgrades for some period of time before we offer them.

 

[RCBinTN]

+1 Thanks for finding and posting that.

 

[DrTone]

Amir is the one who does not understand. When taking measurements it is very important to have the details of the test setup documented (pictures are very helpful for repeatability as well!) and to take measurements that are relevant to the usage of the product being measured.

He’s indicated that he has both versions of the Yggy measured already as well. I’m certain the show is going get even crazier, though the Stereophile measurements by JA might be contradicting in some ways.

 

[RCBinTN]

I just hope the measurements are posted on the Sound Science forum, unless Mike agrees to accept such drivel posted on this, his, blog.

 

[liamo]

I don’t give a click about him. No clicks to give.

 

[Don Hills]

...
I REALLY doubt Schiit (or any manufacturer) would release any product with measurements like that, well maybe a 'here today and gone tomorrow slap it together and ship it' outfit, but that isn't what Schiit is, by any measure.

Something was definitely wrong and its hard to tell what is really going on from here.
...

Atomicbob got essentially the same results when he tested one (not the same unit of course).

Amir's measurement setup has been well documented (and refined after hot debate).
His measurements closely agreed with Atomicbob's. Maybe they're both "doing it wrong"? Measurements by more independent parties would be good.
He has measured other DACs in the same price range with the same setup and shown excellent results.
He says, and I agree, that the sort of defects shown are in the "unlikely to be audible" range.
My own philosophy is that if I can't hear a difference between two similar price DACs, I'm going to go for the one that measures better, as an indication that it's better engineered. As someone pointed out, its like buying a house: Given a choice between a house competently designed and built versus one with a few building code defects that are hidden behind the paint, it's a no brainer. I'm not going to "try living in it and see if I like it."

 

[DoubleIPA]

Atomicbob got essentially the same results when he tested one (not the same unit of course).

Amir's measurement setup has been well documented (and refined after hot debate).
His measurements closely agreed with Atomicbob's. Maybe they're both "doing it wrong"? Measurements by more independent parties would be good.
He has measured other DACs in the same price range with the same setup and shown excellent results.
He says, and I agree, that the sort of defects shown are in the "unlikely to be audible" range.
My own philosophy is that if I can't hear a difference between two similar price DACs, I'm going to go for the one that measures better, as an indication that it's better engineered. As someone pointed out, its like buying a house: Given a choice between a house competently designed and built versus one with a few building code defects that are hidden behind the paint, it's a no brainer. I'm not going to "try living in it and see if I like it."

Were they R2R ladder dacs in that price range? There should be sonic differences between a ladder dac and a delta sigma. Measurements are great, but don't always tell the whole story.

I'm not discounting their measurements, I've seen another source that had similar results with the same DAC, so no argument, but there are other things to consider.

 

[AudioBear]

From the measurements I've seen just about all DACs should sound the same. By that I mean modern chips and filters virtually always have a greater dynamic range, lower jitter, and lower noise (including atomic bob spikes) than even the most acute hearing can hear differences between. But they don't! DACs don't all sound the same. There is a pretty big group of followers not just for Yggy but for several other DACs. Chord gets a lot of love in the same price range as do others. IMHO it's whatever floats your boat. Listen and find the one you like. I have no reason to doubt any of the several who have measured Yggy. It would be interesting to hear from Mike. It would be in particular very interesting to know if there's a reason why normal measurements produce an abnormal looking result. It wouldn't be the first time instruments have been fooled. On the other hand, our ears are very easy to fool. At the end of the day does what you don't hear matter? To me it doesn't.

 

[Don Hills]

... There should be sonic differences between a ladder dac and a delta sigma. ...

Why?