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What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)

Discussion in 'Mike Moffat (Baldr)' started by baldr, Oct 13, 2015.
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  1. amirm
    Well, we are sitting here with the manufacturer not providing any of that for us. So if we want to ask for things, the question should be first aimed at them.

    Your question on noise floor and calibration was addressed in the last post: I am showing comparative measurements. Any drift in measuring equipment is factored out as a result.

    Take a look at stereophile measurements performed by John Atkinson. You will see similar approach to mine.

    Longer term I do plan on writing a tutorial on these measurements and equipment in use.
    VintageFlanker, pure5152 and tili like this.
  2. Don Hills
    Amir's test setup has been documented (and debated at length) on his forum. But you're right, he could write it up as an article for people who haven't followed the series. There's also a thread discussing measurements - what things to measure and how to measure them, so that multiple people can do the tests and achieve consistent results.
    pure5152 and tili like this.
  3. DoubleIPA
    There's not rule, but there is filter implementation (even selectable on some units) and since you already know how these different dacs work you know that they attempt to achieve the same goal in different ways. Is it written as a fact that the outcome must be different, no, but do people hear a difference, yes or at least they claim to.

    You can measure a lot of equipment but that doesn't always equate to quality or equality of sound. Just look at Benchmarks latest amp. It measures extraordinarily well, but quite a few people don't like the sound of it and have sold them. However if you take the position that people's preferences and subjective opinions don't matter and only measurements matter, that's fine, but you don't need to troll a thread about it. After all, you're only hear to fight about it, right.
    omniweltall and RCBinTN like this.
  4. Don Hills
    Thank you. This was my point.
  5. amirm
    The problem with subjective information like you state about Benchmark is that it can't be verified. Measurements however are verifiable and indeed in this case my measurements match another. I have a friend who just bought a full Benchmark stack (DAC and amps) and loves it. So who is right? Your friend or mine?

    Measurements can be interpreted using psychoacoustics and that is what I do. And they are repeatable and reliable as such.

    As to me being here to fight about it, I had no interest in coming here. I was asked and I still said no. Then you all complained about it so here I am. If as customers you prefer to have less data than more, then I am not here to inform you of anything.
  6. DoubleIPA
    but you never made that point, you asked why, but I knew what you were doing and I didn't want to dig up all the white-papers because you're mind is already set.

    Food for thought. Are all pizza sauces the same even if their acid levels, sugar levels, viscosity and weight all measure the same? Of course not because they use different ingredients, kinda like DACS use different ingredients, like filters, capacitors, output stages, dac chips and they are not all of the same quality in all DAC's, but they could measure the same. The more differences they have the higher the probability they may be different. Measurements give you numbers but we haven't figured out exactly how aural senses completely work so we don't know if measurements equate to precisely what we hear.
    Turdski likes this.
  7. DoubleIPA
    No, we told you to come here so you'd stop trolling Jasons' thread because he wasn't the man to direct your question towards. However, it's obiouvse what your play is and you just confirmed it.

    By the way, it's good to know your the internet expert psychoacoustics.
  8. Rowethren
    To be fair regarding Jason blocking you from his thread, he did tell you several times you were posting in the wrong place and he didn't have the answers you were looking for as he does analogue not digital.

    This however should be the right place for the discussion.
    MWSVette and DoubleIPA like this.
  9. Operaphile-

    It’s not exactly a hidden gem but I still like the ‘62 Bayreuth recording with Knappertsbusch conducting, Jess Thomas in the title role, George London as Amfortas. I’m not generally a Knappertsbusch fan, and none of the singers in their respective roles are my favorite but the whole, in this case, is greater than the sum of its parts.

    I am very likely wrong but I’d guess your tastes might lean more towards the ‘54 Bayreuth recording, same conductor but *very different cast. I like this one as well but I find Windgassen too cloying of late.

    In ‘53 Vinay sang the title role and Clemens at the helm. This is certainly on my short list of “Best Parsifal recordings” but I’m loathe to declare any as my absolute favorite.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
    Baldr likes this.
  10. Baldr
    I hate to comment on any bad PR but make an exception here. First, I address the widely reported and endlessly condemned zero crossing "glitch" on earlier Yggydrasil DACs. It was (and still is) my opinion that said glitch was well below the threshold of audibility (> minus 116db). The results were dozens and dozens of posts by one bellyacher (on another forum) adjudging I was incompetent as an engineer. I then decided to address the glitch by adjusting the filter software. The result was no change in audibility. This change was implemented before the multibit Gungnirs and Bifrosts were introduced and that glitch is not applicable has never been involved in those products.

    That said, I did read the review on the Bifrost linked above. It is quite true that the s/n + dist performance of a 16 bit DAC should be worse of than that of a 24 bit ds dac. How audible that is would be an interesting sound science experiment. We make 24 bit DS DACs with similar performance to the favored DAC of the reviewer. The linearity reported measurement is atrocious and far below the performance level of any 16 bit Bifrost ever sold. This means either the linearity measurement or the Bifrost is broken. The differential and integral linearity of the AD5547 is 1/2 LSB, which makes its missing codes reconstruction suitable for weapons or medical, unlike ds, where the nunnery gets bombed or the prostate rather than the colon gets removed.

    If I were working objectively and scientifically with another's component with such apparent anomalies I have several choices. The professional way is that I contact them, report my findings, and try to get to the bottom of what is going on. Even if one really disliks the person/people, it would be a probable sign of their perceived, accurately or not, inadaquacy as a expert to write "papers" or reviews with nothing but perjorative words, subjective negative cosmetic judgement, and grandiosity. In fact, I find it professional to never comment on anyone else's product ever. It is simply none of my business as a manufacturer. I am, however, not a reviewer. This one came out of the blue as a guerilla review I had no idea was in process. That said, at whatever risk, I have an obligation to repair the Bifrost's linearity, if it is indeed broken under warranty, gratis. If it is not, we will do so if desired at a nominal charge. From the tone of your review, it will do little to change anything, but my side of the street will be clean.

    You know to it is difficult for me to understand how I attract such bitterness as well as those who adjudge me to be incompetent. I know I can be harsh and operate with my filters off frequently, but I have amassed too many colleagues in this industry to count, including those who value sound science with whom I have a relationship of mutual respect. I design equipment of all kinds, classic and contemporary, tube and solid state, analog and digital. I never recommend any of mygear to anyone nor make any sonic comparisons. I am genuinely proud to use and offer to others all of my gear. Believe it or not, I even enjoy some competitors' gear. I frequently attend live concerts and genuinely love my hobby. I can think of no other occupation I would find agreeable.

    I have discovered that those who publicly disparage you can do as much for you as those who love you. If nothing else, they keep you in the limelight. Moffat's law number one says:

    I could go off and wander around until God showed me how to make a perfect component and there would still be people who find fault with it.

    The more they fault it the more they promote it. It absolutely does not hurt me. Thick skin I suppose. Some may imagine Schiit to be some huge company with evil corporate marketing looking to dominate a zero sum game. Nope – I am in this for my health. I have been doing it since the 1970's so I am obviously in it for the long run. It is far easier for me to repect and like my competitors than hate them. We need competitors. More and more makers, gear, and people involved. The more involved the lower the prices. No competitors means no shows, no forums, higher prices, and then no nothin' audio. This is exactly what is happening in High End Audio and why it will be gone soon after my generation is dead. This is not a devisive pastime unless you want it to be. If so I encourage you to take up politics.

    Here is my offering to my Northwest Bifrost reviewer of AV gear with the Japanese Bride avatar. I go to every (almost) Rocky Mountain AF, occasional Axpona Shows, and some local meets or SchiitKit shows. Let's meet up, shake hands, be cordial and air our philosophies either publicly or privately. Your call. I promise I to be well behaved verbally and I don't even care if you really think I am ugly or incompetent. This is all I have to say on this subject. No more posts – I will not be called out. I will let your posts stand on this thread (This thread is mine to moderate) as I really loathe censorship. If you wish to further communicate with me all about how stupid I am, how much my gear sucks, or any communication at all, I would encourage you to PM me, as any real or perceived negative Moffat stuff on this thread in particular will probably bode far less well for you than me.
    Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
    https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
  11. FLTWS

    Knappertsbush, Von Karajan, Barenboim
  12. MWSVette
    One of my favorite quotes regarding audio begins "Inaudible is inaudible...".

    Or as my pappy use to say "If I can't hear it. It don't matter..."
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
    FLTWS likes this.
  13. ScottFree
    This may provide some insight to some people. - 2016, Chapter 5: The Subjectivist/Objectivist Synthesis
    RCBinTN likes this.
  14. FLTWS
    Yo! Bosie,
    How many bits will the musicians be playing the Parsifal in on Saturday?
  15. liamo
    I did some analysis of my own and found Schiit is having issues keeping up with the demand for their products. The good news is certain competitors gear is quite readily available, no really, priced to move. I’m sure they’ll include some nifty graphs to show your friends if you wish. In fact, you might consider investing.
    RCBinTN, MWSVette and FLTWS like this.
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