What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)
Aug 10, 2017 at 4:16 PM Post #4,096 of 14,130

Charente

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@earnmyturns ... I came across Cobra by John Zorn ... that's pretty edgy ! Might make a reasonable Equipment Test album ... there's a lot going on !
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 1:12 AM Post #4,097 of 14,130

kstuart

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My Favorite 4 Composers: Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner, Strauss, Sibelius, Puccini, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch,Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Brahms, Schumann, Schubert, Berlioz, Mozart, Bach(s), Haydn, Handel, Purcell, Respighi, Bartok, Janacek, Copland, Vaughn-Williams, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, ..............................................................

The context was not "favorite", it was someone expressing a desire to start listening to classical music for the first time. So, lol - no Bartok or Schoenberg !
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 1:33 AM Post #4,098 of 14,130

bosiemoncrieff

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when i want to cleanse my palate i listen to the complete haydn symphonies. it's a little less than three ring cycles. Also, on a Bellini kick rn. Currently loving the live 1959 Callas Pirata.
 
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Aug 11, 2017 at 1:37 AM Post #4,099 of 14,130

kstuart

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@Baldr - speaking of "...Long Strange Trip..." - be sure not to miss "Long Strange Trip" (on Amazon Video) - excellent !
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM Post #4,100 of 14,130

EricDH

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Mah

Mahler, Bruckner, Shostakovich

+1

And definitely add Stravinsky, Verdi, Debussy, and so many more. There is way too much good music written to pick a few favorites.
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 1:54 AM Post #4,101 of 14,130

wingsounds13

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I have been requested I write a bit about I2S – it seemed like a good topic about which I have never written. Briefly, the common methods of connectivity, in order of introduction, are first S/PDIF and AES/EBU. These are bi-phase modulated connection protocols, similar except for balanced (AES/EBU) and single ended (S/PDIF). There are also provisions for encoded meta data which differ, the AES containing more data appropriate to the professional recording studio, and the S/PDIF containing data primarily useful in home gear. The balanced nature of AES/EBU lends itself to longer runs. In practice, the subcode data is largely ignored in current implementations. This system was designed exclusively as a digital audio data transmission system.

We then have USB Audio and High speed USB Audio, the former suitable for sample rates up to 96K and the latter for higher rates yet. Today we have UAC2 (audio over USB2) as the commonest standard. It is common knowledge that USB is a "Universal" Serial Bus, commonly used for everything from printers to scanners to audio. Kinda like multipurpose rooms in schools, so multipurpose there is prejudice about using them.

But wait! Way back in 1983, when I built my first D/A converter for high-end audio, there was little need for connectivity, as early digital boxes were single purpose appliances. At that time, I had what I thought was a unique idea to separate the mechanical and D/A converter sections of CD players. It did take a while, as we had to build our own digital signal processing circuits, since no special digital audio chipsets were available. SPDIF did not exist as of yet (and this was decades before USB).

The irreducible minimum of digital audio signals are Bit Clock, Word Clock, and Data; BWD. These signals are multiplexed and demultiplexed in all other connection protocols, even in I2S. Three clocks, 6 wires with grounds: 16, 24, or 32 bits of data, which are clocked into D/A converters with each bit clock until one channel of the sample is complete and the word clock starts it over with the other channel. With data overhead, 3MHz at 48K sampling, doubling to 6 and 12 Mhz at 96 and 192KHz sr. This is the most complicated but by far the best sounding way to hook a digital source to a digital converter. Period.

Within a year or two, SPDIF (actually S/PDIF) Sony/Phillips digital audio interface coax and later TOS (Barf) connections were available on CD players. I added the SPDIF to my prototype and Theta Digital was born, back in 1985. I had a way to hook my D/A converter universally to CD players. Soon, Wadia joined the party, and then there dozens of companies making them within a few years, as cookbook chipsets became available. This enabled anyone who could read to build an so-so D/A converter, which was good to legitimize the idea of the D/A converter, but the chipset designs typically sounded like ass.

With S/PDIF came a quandary. Even though SPDIF enabled any CD player (the source of the era) to be hooked up to any D/A converter, it did not sound as good as BitWordData. The problem with BWD was inherent fragility; digital audio signals were exposed to static and the possibility of shorts which could and would blow the phuc outta some very fundamental parts of the circuitry that in many cases could render the source junk. S/PDIF solved the fragility.

Then it got worse – Phillips, yup Phillips, invented I2S and I2C as a novel way to reduce wire counts in interfaces. Since I2C is for control, I2S for music. I2S was their method of reducing 3 signals down to two. The worst is that I2S sounds like ass compared to BWD (but still arguably better than SPDIF), and it has all of the same fragility, closed loop, and non-standard problems as BWD. Since it was simpler and cheaper, I2S won out over BWD as an internal standard to hook up digital audio appliances. Figures.

So, you may ask, since I2S is better and BWD waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than SPDIF - Why doesn't Schiit use it? Schiit is a company selling big bang for the buck products. We have no sales dept and only one guy for customer service, as that is expensive overhead which flies in the face of our "bang for the buck" theme. If you frequently connect and disconnect, you will sooner or later have trouble. It also closes up the system and makes it awkward to audition other types of gear. Customer service intensive.

Am I closing the door on I2S as an external connectivity standard? You bet – it is a wet dream compared to BWD.

Take heart! All of our digital gear is upgradable and it is not out of the question that I may offer BWD as an external connection between our gear. The only problem is that I would have to make a digital source component first.

Interesting about BWD vs. I²S. Also interesting that you state that I²S combines Bit Clock and Word Clock, where what I find is that the minimum signals in I²S are three lines: Bit Clock, Word Clock and Data which to me appears to be == BWD. I do not find reference to Bclk and Wclk being combined. Please elucidate on where I have gone wrong in my search for information on this ubiquitous CD player and DAC internal communication specification which is also gaining some ground in various forms (such as using HDMI interconnect hardware) as an external communication specification.

J.P.
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 4:50 AM Post #4,103 of 14,130
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Interesting about BWD vs. I²S. Also interesting that you state that I²S combines Bit Clock and Word Clock, where what I find is that the minimum signals in I²S are three lines: Bit Clock, Word Clock and Data which to me appears to be == BWD. I do not find reference to Bclk and Wclk being combined. Please elucidate on where I have gone wrong in my search for information on this ubiquitous CD player and DAC internal communication specification which is also gaining some ground in various forms (such as using HDMI interconnect hardware) as an external communication specification.

J.P.
This query has resulted in clarification and correction based on review of some very old schematics, recall of tech memories of 40 years ago, and docs of the first pre Theta D/A converters.. I2S is defined as a three wire system. Bit clock, Word clock, and Data. Sounds like BWD, no?? There is one major difference between I2S and BWD. Above I referred to muxing and demuxing. Necessary with I2S because unlike true BWD, where the data begins in sync with the word (channel clock), the data is delayed exactly one bit clock after the word clock. This allowed the majority of early I2S implementations to be two wire interfaces as bit clocks are easily derived as a difference on the bit clock interval, obviating the need to run the Bit Clock wire. That raises the I2S phuctivity up several notches, because it is necessary to decode, resync, and dephukify the data back to the word clock where it belongs. That was the operation where I could not deassify the sound of I2S.
 
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Aug 11, 2017 at 5:00 AM Post #4,104 of 14,130
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when i want to cleanse my palate i listen to the complete haydn symphonies. it's a little less than three ring cycles. Also, on a Bellini kick rn. Currently loving the live 1959 Callas Pirata.
OMG, I will find you some counseling - next you will be hanging out at Sunday matinees with insufferable deaf, bejeweled Old Ladies, endlessly chattering loudly at the concert over the endless loop of Baroque. It is a slippery slope from Wagner to Haydn to Pachebel to Pops concerts. I will send an ambulance when you express admiration for Vivaldi as a hop to Bluegrass and the final stop, pop music.
 
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Aug 11, 2017 at 5:35 AM Post #4,105 of 14,130

FLTWS

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LOL! When I'm feeling constipated from partaking of too much of the Late Romantic cheese log, I find Bach and Mozart the cure.
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 6:12 AM Post #4,106 of 14,130

Pietro Cozzi Tinin

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when i want to cleanse my palate i listen to the complete haydn symphonies. it's a little less than three ring cycles. Also, on a Bellini kick rn. Currently loving the live 1959 Callas Pirata.
Take your elbow out of the soup, you're sitting on the chicken.
(by Ian Dury)
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 7:07 AM Post #4,107 of 14,130

Letmebefrank

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I'm having a hard time getting into classical. I turn up the quiet violin parts so I can hear all the little details and then bam the horns come in and blow my face off. I'm all for dynamic range but it's a bit too much in the classical that I've heard.
 
Aug 11, 2017 at 8:00 AM Post #4,108 of 14,130

GearMe

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OMG, I will find you some counseling - next you will be hanging out at Sunday matinees with insufferable deaf, bejeweled Old Ladies, endlessly chattering loudly at the concert over the endless loop of Baroque. It is a slippery slope from Wagner to Haydn to Pachebel to Pops concerts. I will send an ambulance when you express admiration for Vivaldi as a hop to Bluegrass and the final stop, pop music.

A slippery slope indeed that will lead to constant sorrow!

 
Aug 11, 2017 at 9:30 AM Post #4,109 of 14,130

HumanFly

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Take your elbow out of the soup, you're sitting on the chicken.
(by Ian Dury)
yeay blockheads!

So I didnt` grasp the I2s comment. Does Mike state it is worse than he mentioned before or slightly better? As I read it its a bit (ha) better than initally vented.

The way to end all nervose would be to just skip usb/coax etc-conversions. I was thinking that if one wanted to do such a thing i2s would be the way. For me it would be convenient as the raspberry can output to i2s without much tweaking.

But as my wife will tell you: I`m likely to be wrong.
 
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Aug 11, 2017 at 11:34 AM Post #4,110 of 14,130

Ableza

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I2S can only be used in consumer audio in closed environments (all digital gear the same brand) since there is no standard for it. And what does exist is compromised at best. Just use a proper consumer audio format.
 

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