[Dutchamps]

Have anyone of you heard of Jitter?
If put in a very bad cd you can hear the jitter (fault correction)
If jitter appear you hear sounds like ticking, clicking sounds ..... loss of sound stage appear
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/590jitter
The DAC of cd player`s DAC works with a Cristal
Its the main computing component of the DAC  it compute the bits to analog signal
Most important and more then any tweak i have seen here
 
But it can be a costly component BUT it does more good then any tweak here discussed.
if no jitter appear adds no errors to the signal and is cleaner the ever.
I have realty good experiences with tentlabs, they sell ultra low noise Cristal's, not like the standard V-DAC ones.
Also they have re-clocking kits with those Cristals
 
 
Main page http://www.tentlabs.com
 
Note tentlabs is temp. offline (27-12-2010)reason: think updating site
 
Look at some more tweak kits all very good being made with highend thoughts
Men like Guido (tentlabs) and Menno van der Veen (both dutch engineer`s) have met them in real live on a highend demonstration.
http://www.mennovanderveen.nl/eng/index.html
They know what highend audio is.
Hope some one takes the chance to exchange the Cristal and put in his experience ......
 
Me i stopped with the DAC have sold it, have made a DAC by myself .... yes it overrules the V-DAC
 
My regaplaner & Sumiko bluepoint special evo3 overrules all DAC`s   hehehehehe  there is notting like good old vinyl 
When records are dirty, with ticks and rustle

 

[00940]

You know, the jitter of the stock unit is so low with USB input that Stereophile couldn't measure it... http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-v-dac-da-processor-measurements

Could any diyer with this dac tell me how the PCM2706 is set up ? I2S or SPDIF out ? The discrepancies in measurements in between the spdif inputs and the USB inputs are weird.

 

[Dutchamps]

 
Quote:

You know, the jitter of the stock unit is so low with USB input that Stereophile couldn't measure it... http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-v-dac-da-processor-measurements

Could any diyer with this dac tell me how the PCM2706 is set up ? I2S or SPDIF out ? The discrepancies in measurements in between the spdif inputs and the USB inputs are weird.

 
Hearing and measuring are 2 different  things
USB from a pc?
What kind of stock unit (sorry for misunderstanding i`m dutch)
 
V-DAC specs say
Total Jitter 170ps
170 pico seconds kind of high
Tentlabs has ones who goes to 1-3 ps
 
 
Quote:

the V-DAC does not reject incoming jitter as well as I would wish, which is presumably why ST heard significant differences between the transports he tried with the V-DAC. The measured jitter level via both the TosLink and coaxial inputs was never high, but it varied considerably according to the source I used. Fed via 15' of TosLink cable from the RME soundcard mounted in one of my test-lab PCs, the measured jitter level was 444 picoseconds peak–peak, with most of the energy in the data-related sidebands at ±229.5Hz and ±689.5Hz. Changing the source to the AP SYS2722's TosLink output and using the same 15' of optical cable, the jitter halved in level, with now just the ±229.5Hz sidebands visible, and then only in the left channel (fig.9).

 
jitter 444 picoseconds peak–peak is far from good, oke it depends somehow on the music sourse.
 
 
Differents? yes and how
Jitter faults result in fault correction this makes analog sound like clicking and disturbs the audio spoils the sound stage like voices and other delicated sounds.
 
From http://www.psaudio.com/ps/wiki/jitter/
This part is important cd or dvd it doesnt matter
 
Compact disc seek jitter
In the context of digital audio extraction from Compact Discs, seek jitter causes extracted audio samples to be doubled-up or skipped entirely if the Compact Disc drive re-seeks. The problem occurs during seeking because the Red Book (audio CD standard) does not require block-accurate addressing. As a result, the extraction process may restart a few samples early or late, resulting in doubled or omitted samples. These glitches often sound like tiny repeating clicks during playback. A successful approach of correction in software involves performing overlapping reads and fitting the data to find overlaps at the edges. Most extraction programs perform seek jitter correction. CD manufacturers avoid seek jitter by extracting the entire disc in one continuous read operation using special CD drive models at slower speeds so the drive does not re-seek.
Due to additional sector level addressing added in the Yellow Book (CD standard), CD-ROM data discs are not subject to seek jitter.
A jitter meter is a testing instrument for measuring clock jitter values, and is used in manufacturing DVD and CD-ROM discs.
 
Overall i guess that changing the Cristal to a tentlabs quality will bring more then changing the psu.
 
Again:
Jitter is speeding up and delaying the calculating power of the DAC, like cd players or dvd`s they have build in a fault correction.
If fault correction is on ...... clicking and ticking sounds will apear and they are loud, sometimes they overpower the sound of voices etc
Hope most of you understand the working of the DAC technoligy
 
If this hapen better components like c`s  R`s opamps will only making it more clearly to be heard.
So change the computing area befor changing the components behind the DAC

 

[sluker]

For those of us not technically inclined. Is there an after market power supply consensus for the v-dac which will be similar in size to the the stock unit?

 

[Dutchamps]

A dutch guy i invited to mod his V-DAC at my place.
He readed my comments here and knew i was Dutch

Have changed little components like the NE5532 Opamp and output caps C3-4
Brought with him a powersourse specially made for the V-DAC.
This company had made a improved psu don't know the company name but i remembered its located in the U.K.
After some google search
 
http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/musical-fidelity-vcan-vdac-vlps-power-supply.html
 
There is another one
 
http://www.squeeze-upgrade.com/squeezeupgrade-linear-power-supply-vdac-p-1603.html
 
Personally i find it a lot of money but he you got guaranty and don't have to make it yourself

 
You see enough choices

 

[Squal75fr]

 
Quote:

 
For compare caps .... a audio freak already tested them ...
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
 
Hope you have got a answer ....
 

[size=10pt]I compared the quality/price level and I chose the Amp Ohm FP-CA-AU 630VDC and the [/size][size=10pt]Vishay MKP1837 [/size][size=10pt]0.01uf as a bypass.[/size]
[size=10pt]Thank you very much Dutchamps for your advice. [/size]

 

 

[Dutchamps]

No problem m8 i have enough google links found in all those years

 
[size=10pt]Amp Ohm FP-CA-AU 630VDC        price?[/size]
 
I use audyncaps from intertechniek ( germany) in my tube amps.
 
Price differents is too big to exchange then to mundorfs  (caps in signal way )
 

• pre-amp line                      4
• pre-amp phoneamp            6
• DAC tda1543 (8 ps)           4
• Power amps (2x mono)      4

 
Loudspeakers are even more Mkp caps
bigest is
47uf/400V    dementions ( 75x55 mm round)  anode and cathode leads 1,6 mm
 
all expensive too expensive hehehehe
But why are you gonna bypass a output cap?
 
Nice for helping a elco in the psu but in the signal way its better to have one cap Mkp only off course.
 
Problem with mkp is that the factories only makes high voltages types
 
The only reason is that the tube-amps needs them and transistor or fets don't need high voltages (highest 100V=)
 
So many audio designers use what is available .... high voltages types.
 
Back in 1970-80 there where more high-end audio made for low voltages amps so there was plenty of caps to choose from
 
Now these days, try to find a low voltage styroflex ...... you wont find them in values like 1-10000 Pf
 
They have stopped manufacturing them .... market is dropped
 
I found some new styroflex types low values (300 ps) in the 2nd hand on Internet, payed about 40 €
 
Found brand new ones 4 ps in the electric components shop here in Rotterdam payed € 6,80 the 4 ps  that's €1,70 a ps
 
man that's robbery but i got the styroflex caps

 

[Squal75fr]

Quote:

 
[size=10pt]Amp Ohm FP-CA-AU 630VDC        price?[/size]
 

It's only 3,60EUR the cap (http://www.audiophonics.fr/condensateur-ampohm-polypropylene-mkp-630vdc-fpcaau-33uf-p-4503.html)
 
Quote:

/img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
But why are you gonna bypass a output cap?
 

That comes from here : http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
[size=x-small]Tony Gee indicates [/size][size=x-small]he can’t live without them!  [/size]
 
"[size=x-small]Vishay MKP1837 (a.k.a. ERO MKP1830) 0,01uF MKP 100VDC – 1% tolerance[/size]
[size=x-small]Technical specifications: Metallised polypropylene, radial capacitor, designed for LC/RC filter circuits, coupling and de-coupling at high frequencies.[/size]
[size=x-small]Sound: I was tipped by Klaus Witte of Germany to try this capacitor as a bypass cap for the Mundorf M-CAP SUPREME. I tried them as a bypass for the tweeter series caps in my Progress speaker and I must say I am very impressed! To get straight to the point they don't change a Supreme into a Supreme Silver-Oil but they really do clear things up. I must admit I was sceptical at first as the value is only 10nF (0,01uF) - and the caps in the Progress are 12,6uF. The difference is most noticeable with classical music but also good quality recordings of jazz and fusion benefit: No change in sound stage width or depth but there is more "concert hall acoustics" that let you get into the recording more. Not as liquid as silver/oil but they take away the "grainy" edge from the Supreme's. A gain in clarity and transparency making instruments better separable from each other, the violins in an orchestra are a group of individual violins instead of one mass. Jazz drum brushes sound more like a brush than a "shush".[/size]
[size=x-small]Verdict: Can’t live without them! – Use them as bypass cap with any capacitor, they cost practically nothing!"[/size]

 

[Dutchamps]

 
Quote:

Quote:

 
[size=10pt]Amp Ohm FP-CA-AU 630VDC        price?[/size]
 

It's only 3,60EUR the cap (http://www.audiophonics.fr/condensateur-ampohm-polypropylene-mkp-630vdc-fpcaau-33uf-p-4503.html)
 
Quote:

/img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
But why are you gonna bypass a output cap?
 

That comes from here : http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
[size=x-small]Tony Gee indicates [/size][size=x-small]he can’t live without them!  [/size]
 
"[size=x-small]Vishay MKP1837 (a.k.a. ERO MKP1830) 0,01uF MKP 100VDC – 1% tolerance[/size]
[size=x-small]Technical specifications: Metallised polypropylene, radial capacitor, designed for LC/RC filter circuits, coupling and de-coupling at high frequencies.[/size]
[size=x-small]Sound: I was tipped by Klaus Witte of Germany to try this capacitor as a bypass cap for the Mundorf M-CAP SUPREME. I tried them as a bypass for the tweeter series caps in my Progress speaker and I must say I am very impressed! To get straight to the point they don't change a Supreme into a Supreme Silver-Oil but they really do clear things up. I must admit I was sceptical at first as the value is only 10nF (0,01uF) - and the caps in the Progress are 12,6uF. The difference is most noticeable with classical music but also good quality recordings of jazz and fusion benefit: No change in sound stage width or depth but there is more "concert hall acoustics" that let you get into the recording more. Not as liquid as silver/oil but they take away the "grainy" edge from the Supreme's. A gain in clarity and transparency making instruments better separable from each other, the violins in an orchestra are a group of individual violins instead of one mass. Jazz drum brushes sound more like a brush than a "shush".[/size]
[size=x-small]Verdict: Can’t live without them! – Use them as bypass cap with any capacitor, they cost practically nothing!"[/size]

Coupling C`s can help, only if the value is about 10% of the main cap less will do almost notting.
This idea was born in the past when caps where not the today`s standard
Like polyester Caps by-passed with a mkp (those where unplayable in big ones 1978)
 
Silver is a choice same as copper
Silver CAN sound like overkill in high frequencies course silver/mica was made by the military factories to provide it into HF transmitters not intended for LF
I find that if audiophiles using it the have somehow a bad connection in there audio circuit, this is pure MY OPINION
(my father always ^&$&%&#*$&#& about mkp course hes into HF techniques and stock old )
 
I'm pleased that it works to your satisfaction
 
My stuff
http://public.fotki.com/sof2-penguin/hobby/

 

[00940]

Dutchamps: I'm sorry but you obviously don't understand what jitter is (by bringing seek jitter in, which is irrelevant) and how the V-DAC works. I would suggest you the reading of this serie of articles: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf1_e.html Not perfect but a good introduction.

More to the point: if there are huge discrepancies in jitter measurements according to sources (toslink vs USB according to stereophile), then you cannot put the blame on the clock inside a DAC with an ASRC... you have other problems to fix first. Throwing money blindly to an expensive clock is an expansive bet. Stereophile measurements apparatus is able to measure up to 120ps of jitter iirc; the clock inside the V-DAC is thus at least as good, maybe much better.

Playing the devil's advocate, one might say that jitter is not proven audible up to the ns range... It doesn't prevent me to look for much lower jitter in my gear and use good clocks but I just think this is a case where it doesn't make sense.

 

[Dutchamps]

Saying that i dont understand how it works, fine.
You CAN look into my brain

your smart or a Paragnost lool
 
Oke Your making a point a was a bit too quickly but sinds your a belgium guy.
Why didnt you explained it into ducth on PM. not smart LOOL
 
Back to topic
 
I see now what you ment by viewing this picture i knew that there where two sides clock who are needed to compute the bits
I clock generator is bad (cd player) then the dac is not to blame, oke logical
So both clocks need to be very good to avoid jitter, am i wrong?
 

note : I use a TEAC vrds10 se as drive for the cd`s (pluged out the mains for the DAC inside old tda1541) now i use a other dac TDA1543 *8 output stage is with tubes
 
"On the other end, during D/A conversion, instead, in order to reduce jitter to a minimum we just need to make the cleanest possible clock available.
The problem is easily and happily solved by hi class CD players builders by using very expensive clocks in the players, and just leaving the less fortunate people to live with it...."
Oke clocks in the sourse devices must be quality ....
 

 

[Squal75fr]

Hi Dutchamps,
Could you post pics about your final realisation with the psu inside?
What about the lm317 reg? what is the correct voltage? 0,5V or 5V?

 

[Dutchamps]

Sorry m8 mine has burned some ics out and dont use it
Want to restore it much later on
Why dont you set a multymeter on the pcb to measure the voltages

 
Cant help yyou right now
 
Note some dude here placed the schematic here maybe he found the value read back some topic pages

 

[Squal75fr]

Quote:

Why dont you set a multymeter on the pcb to measure the voltages

Yes, you right!

How did you burnt your V-DAC ? a lot of damage?

 

[kzsolt]

First of all anybody try'd replace the IC7 NE5532 with AD746 and with what result? This is the officail upgdae of in more product (the 5532 in lowe cat the 746 in higher cat).
 
Othersides the toroid maybe not the good solution. The toroid type has higher passsge of current between the primary and secondary side. This can be harm the audio qualty depend on using environment (amp...).
 
Anbody recognize the flowing problem?
If I feed the the V-DAC with 0...-2dB peak audio material then after ~50sec the output level decreasing and the nonlinear distortion go to high. In silents the above condition are "reseted". Because I use 12V stabilized DC PWR this mean one or more of the intenal power converter have not enough capability to feed the DAC contignosly just in case of peaks.
If the audio material are at <=-6dB level then this problem does not occured.
This normally occured if the DAC feeded trough SPDIF and the connected device has no volume contoll capability. For example some CD are filled with digitally optimized audio material. This mean the volume of aligned to maximal possible value.