[foreverfi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by estreeter /img/forum/go_quote.gif You were planning to drive high-end headphones with an entry-level portable amp ? I believe that many here spend thousands on the 'right' amp for the HD650 - happy to hear otherwise.

In fact HD 650 is a bit hard to boost than HD 600 or HD 800.

By the way, Portable amp has something compromised with power because of the battery power issue. Anyway, it is useful device for many phones.

Do'n't forget, HD650 is not deisgned for portable purpose.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

I haven't gotten my D4 review put together yet, but I have done most of the listening and opamp rolling, so here is some more info below, to help until I get it written up. I wrote this up a little while ago, posted in the D4 Mamba thread.

I will break the silence by saying the D4 with the OPA1611 class-A topkit from HiFlight is my current top pick for USB DAC/Amp, based on the sound and features. HOWEVER, I am not happy with the less than 10 hour battery life to get it there. And, with the UE11Pro the $99 uDAC is much better, but it is not portable (the UE11Pro are notorious for being picky about what amp you use).

There wont be much left to say after this and my previous posts, but I think I should still try to get it into the same format as the other amp reviews.

------

I got the latest D4 topkit from HiFlight with upgraded opamps - it looks to have a pair of OPA1611A class-A biased on a 2:1 adapter, and includes bypassed buffers to use in case you are willing to give up a little refinement and bass to save battery life. It is intended to give the best sound by keeping the stock LMH6655 buffers, and simply replaces the stock AD8066 opamp. I have not tested battery life yet, but I will.

I was already thrilled with the D4's sound when stock, which is about as good as the D10 when the D10 has it's own topkit installed (TLE2141 class-A on a 2:1 with EL8201 buffers). Now it is better than the D10 and pretty close to being an "RSA P-51 clone", so I am excited about it.

Here is the thought process that I recorded as I listened to the topkit, with bypassed buffers and with the stock buffers. I will have more impressions when I add my D4 review to my big USB DAC amp review soon.

Using ES3X:

The D4 with stock opamps (I think AD8066/LMH6655) sounds very similar to the D10 with topkit (TLE2141 class-A/EL8201), which is actually not a whole lot different from the Pico. The Stock D10 is closer to the Predator, but with slightly rolled off or less aggressive highs. The D10 topkit opens up the highs and soundstage a little more, and slightly pulls back the mids and bass from the Predator - and this is where the D4 starts out at. Well balanced and punchy, with excellent transparency, leaning towards neutral with a nudge to the side of warmth.

We compared the D10 with topkit to the P-51 at RMAF and I felt there were similarities - with the D10 being slightly more recessed in the mids and a little rolled off in the highs vs the P-51 being the biggest difference. There is also slightly less bass in the D10 with topkit when compared to the Predator, but it's still in line with the P-51 bass and the stock D4 was no different. So, I felt the same way when comparing the stock D4 - it was close but not quite as good as the P-51, but easily on the level of the Pico or Predator or 3MOVE which are in the top tier of portable amps, despite having slightly different sound signatures.

The D4 with the new topkit is a little more energetic and not as laid back as the stock opamps. It sounds more alive like the P-51 or Predator. The middle and upper mids are a little more present and fuller but it doesn't seem to affect the soundstage size even though it makes it slightly more forward and energetic sounding. The D10 with topkit and stock D4 were both slightly rolled off in the highs and slightly more laid back vs P-51 - so the D4 topkit brings it closer to the P-51 highs; however the bass isn't up to the level of the P-51 with the buffers bypassed. The D4 topkit highs have more depth into the music than the stock opamps where it is slightly recessed.

But while the D4 topkit highs are not rolled off vs the P-51 anymore, they are still not quite as natural or sweet as the P-51 highs with the ES3X. And, with Kathleen Edwards "Back to Me" the highs are still too sibilant due to poor recording combined with a little bit of lower treble tilt to the topkit.

Still, it is another step forward in the sound.

With JH13Pro:

This is even better than ES3X with the new topkit, as there is more synergy. I hear a bigger difference between the amps and topkits with JH13Pro than with ES3X. Again, not as laid back in the mids as the stock opamps, or D10 with topkit, or Pico - but in a good way. Compared to the Predator, D4 topkit fills in the JH13Pro mids like the Predator, but the topkit is not as rolled off in the highs and also does not have as much bass as the Predator - with most music that is okay.

Modified topkit (new opamps, but retain the stock buffers) - Putting the LMH6655 buffers back in improves the D4 bass response to be closer to the the P-51 bass (slightly below the Predator bass levels). This was much better sounding, and the overall sound was also a bit warmer and refined sounding than with the bypassed buffers. With Hans Zimmer "Batman Begins - Molossus" has deep throbbing bass and crisp strings, where I was wishing for just a little more bass without the LMH6655. The Pico sounded less clear and defined and more recessed in the mids vs the D4 with OPA1611 class-A/LMH6655, with both using their USB DAC. Wow!

The 3MOVE with this music and JH13pro actually had slightly more bass than the D4 or others (like Predator), but was slightly more forward and less open. I wanted to say that the modified topkit is not too different from the 3MOVE amp, but with a nicer DAC giving better micro-detail, and slightly better highs than 3MOVE, and with a little more balanced bass presence vs the 3MOVE. Which means it's not really like the 3MOVE, which is very good in it's own way.

So, in summary - the D4 with modified topkit (new opamps, stock buffers) is actually closest to the P-51 Mustang when feeding the D4 line-out into the P-51 with an 18G Jumbo Cryo Silver X mini-mini. I can go back and forth between the D4's built-in DAC and Amp and the D4's DAC feeding the P-51 and I am quite happy with both, finding them to sound very similar. I am leaving the D4 set up this way as a "P-51 clone" for the time being. I have to run through a plethora of headphones and IEM again, with the new topkit installed.

 

[kostalex]

Please, please post some brief notes on D4 vs Pico amp/DAC comparison in DAC only mode, driving another amp, using D4 line out as well as HP out.

 

[kostalex]

(shameless manipulation) This would be a nice Christmas gift to all of your loyal readers!

 

[GandalfLux]

hi,

Can i ask a little question to you.....

Enter a XM5 and an iBasso D10 what is your choice ???

It's really hard do decide.... Because in your test isn't the night and the day enter this two AMP/DAC.

I think this two is good .

I read the Se 530 si a little bad with the bass and i think is possible the Bass Bost of the XM5 can help me with a little music. but i read the DAC is really not good compare the iBasso.


So you the great Head-Fi'er can you help a little frenchy

All apologize for my english ...


Thanks for your help

 

[mrarroyo]

Larry, how about posting pictures of the D4 w/ the modified TopKit. Thanks.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GandalfLux /img/forum/go_quote.gif hi, Can i ask a little question to you..... Enter a XM5 and an iBasso D10 what is your choice ??? It's really hard do decide.... Because in your test isn't the night and the day enter this two AMP/DAC. I think this two is good . I read the Se 530 si a little bad with the bass and i think is possible the Bass Bost of the XM5 can help me with a little music. but i read the DAC is really not good compare the iBasso. So you the great Head-Fi'er can you help a little frenchy All apologize for my english ... Thanks for your help

I really like the XM5 amp section sound, and it is more powerful than the D10 with more options and settings. The DAC is not as detailed or transparent or spacious as the D10 DAC, but it's perfectly acceptable. It uses the same PCM2703E Japan that the 3MOVE uses, and it's very close in quality to the 3MOVE in sound with my AD8065 opamps and BUF634 buffers installed.

And, if you got the XM5 it will improve with an upgraded DAC that you could plug into the XM5 if you decided to do that later. For example, you could always add a Nuforce uDAC for $99 to have a DAC as good as the D10 or Pico's DAC, and feed that into the XM5 or even use the uDAC headphone out - saving the XM5 for when you listen with your iPod or non-computer source. In my case, I would prefer an XM5 + uDAC + opamp upgrades over the "Pico with DAC", and the combo is still less money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrarroyo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Larry, how about posting pictures of the D4 w/ the modified TopKit. Thanks.

I'll try to get to that later, but are you sure nobody has already posted a photo in the other D4 threads?

 

[GandalfLux]

Really thanks ...

I think i buy an Ibasso D10 . but is possible i sell it for take an XM5 LOL

So now i think is better interessant to have an Optical input and Coax input maybe i never use it but i test with my squeezebox later.

Really thanks for all.


Best regards,

Gandalf

 

[mrarroyo]

Larry, at my age I am not sure of anything anymore!

 

[plumpcheek]

Thanks for your review, I'd like to ask about using D10 with uDac as source via coaxial. Is it a good combo?
Thanks in advance and happy new year

 

[Agent_Moler]

Hey Larry,

A question. So if a person was deciding between buying an RSA predator or P 51 vs a D4 with a top kit, which do you think would be the better choice? I'm in this boat, I own a 2move and a D10 and I'm considering my next amp. I'm very curious about how the predator sounds and from what you've stated before, I can model the sound by OPAMP rolling my D10. Do you think it really approaches the authentic sound of the predator though?

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plumpcheek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for your review, I'd like to ask about using D10 with uDac as source via coaxial. Is it a good combo? Thanks in advance and happy new year

The uDAC is very slightly better as a DAC than the D10 via USB, but the D10 via optical/coax can match it. Which leaves us wondering how good is the uDAC USB > S/PDIF converter. The D10 uses the same PCM2706 chip to convert USB > S/PDIF internally, so it should do S/PDIF conversion just as well as the uDAC.

Where the uDAC draws it's strength is in it's ESS Sabre 9022 DAC chip that is doing the decoding, and sending it out through the RCA jacks. It might be possible to get a slight improvement by feeding the uDAC RCA into the D10 amp, and ignoring the D10 DAC, but the D10 via USB is still very good.

If you don't think the D10 via USB is good enough you don't have much to lose by trying the uDAC feeding the D10, because you could sell which ever you didn't like more. But it might not be cost effective to be feeding a uDAC into the D10 for that last few % improvement in sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent_Moler /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey Larry, A question. So if a person was deciding between buying an RSA predator or P 51 vs a D4 with a top kit, which do you think would be the better choice? I'm in this boat, I own a 2move and a D10 and I'm considering my next amp. I'm very curious about how the predator sounds and from what you've stated before, I can model the sound by OPAMP rolling my D10. Do you think it really approaches the authentic sound of the predator though?

A lot depends on whether you need more than 8-10 hours of battery life, and whether you need the small size of the P-51 or Predator (or Shadow or Pico Slim). The stock D4's sound signature falls between the Pico and the P-51, and slightly better than the D10 with topkit (different opamps than D4 topkit). Skylab rated the D4 tied in 3rd place with the Pico and 3MOVE, and behind the P-51 which tied in 2nd place with the iQube (haven't heard that one myself). I think the D4 with OPA1611 C-A topkit is very close to the P-51 which I like more than the Predator or Pico, as does Skylab. I think the D4's USB DAC is slightly better than the D10 via USB, and on a similar level to the Pico DAC-only or uDAC, but the D10 USB DAC is not far behind at all. Some people may not hear the differences if they don't have IEM like JH13Pro and ES3X to hear them.

But the 8-10 hours of battery life bugs me - even though I would not listen that long at one sitting, and I could pop in another battery if it dies on me. I'm the kind of person that would forget to shut off the amp, and go to use it only to discover the battery is dead. For this reason, I mostly use the D4 with my laptop in 5v mode, and it has replaced my D10 in that duty. But, I don't take the D4 out with me to use portable with iPod - I am using the smaller T3 or P-51 for that until I get my Pico Slim.

So...

If I wanted a really small amp for portable iPod use, with 50-60 hour battery life, a very high quality USB DAC for computer listening, the best sound, and price no object - then I would either pick the P-51, Shadow or Pico Slim combined with a Pico DAC-only or Nuforce uDAC. That way I could leave the DAC behind with the computer and have a smaller amp for the iPod when portable (or carry the DAC with the laptop if mobile).

If I was mostly going to use it with a laptop in 5v mode, occasionally use it with an iPod, didn't care about size or battery life, or worried about price - then I would get the D4 with topkit. The sound comes very close to the Pico DAC-only feeding the P-51, but in a larger package and MUCH smaller price.

If you already have a 2MOVE and D10, that is a good combo to have - you can do a topkit in the D10 to bring it closer to the stock D4 (not far from the P-51 but some high end extension missing in the D10 with topkit). Or you can use the stock opamps to leave it similar to the Predator, or feed the D10 DAC into the 2MOVE for when you want the warmer more forward sound and extra power over the D10. The 2MOVE with a better DAC is a formidable combo. And, while the size isn't tiny with either of these you have better battery life.

I definitely like the sound of the D4 with topkit over the D10 with any opamps, but that doesn't all of a sudden make the D10 a bad amp that you must upgrade. You have to weigh the pluses and minuses and decide what features you need most. The D4 can drive an HD600 better because of 9v mode, but the battery life is 3x shorter. The USB DAC in the D10 is almost as good as the one on the D4, but it adds the ability to listen to optical 24/96 via computer or vintage portable CD player/iRiver. The D4 with topkit comes closer to the P-51 benchmark than the D10 with topkit. The D4 can run off 5v USB 24/7 unattended without having to worry about overcharging the battery, while the D10 charge switch should be turned off occasionally. Etc, etc...

 

[as1klh0]

ibasso d10 use PCM2906 to converts USB into a S/PDIF signal

 

[morning1985]

Hi Headphone addict

I'm currently using a RME digiface for optical out, to a Headroom Micro Dac, I wonder if the line out SQ of D10 is better than MicroDac

thanks

 

[qusp]

Larry, the uDAC does not use the sabre ESS9018, it uses the MUCH cheaper (but still quite respectable) ESS9022, which has internal I/V (which cannot be bypassed AFAIK; _<could be mistaken on that part, not 100% certain), only 2 channel output and inferior jitter rejection. I have seen this misinformation posted around the forum quite a bit lately. just the ESS9018 part alone costs nearly the same as the entire uDAC does. I know the 9018 part is kinda stuck in the memory around here due to its amazing sound, so thats probably whats going on, but I have seen several people going around thinking they are getting a little B32 for 90 bucks and that simply isnt the case.

great for a little USB convertor though