[Arnaldo]

I conducted a rather brief and informal comparison between the Ed 10 and the Ed 8 LE last night. For the sake of variety, I went outside my usual high-rez classical SACD environment and used instead Mofi's RBCD reissue of "Yes Album." Specifically the track called "Your Move," which is the first part of "I've Seen All Good People." With the two phones fed from a Luxman P-200:
 

1. I had to match volume levels when switching between them - the 8 is considerably louder than the 10.

1. The 8 is smoother, while the 10 is more detailed. But both are miles ahead of my fading memories of the Denon AH-D7000 in terms of transparency and soundstaging.
2. Right after the brief a capella introduction, there's a section with Steve Howe's acoustic guitar panned left and Jon Anderson's vocal in the center. And with the 10, I could more clearly discern the detail and boundaries of the very low reverberation on the right.
3. Jon Anderson's voice sounded raspier on the 10, but strikingly realistic. On the 8, his voice was somewhat rounder.
4. With the backup vocals, it was easier to detect individual - and rather nasal - voices on the 10, while the 8 made the chorus better integrated as a whole.
5. Using video jargon, while the 10 seems to offers a higher pixel count, it comes with a very analytical view of the analog masters' inherent limitations. OTOH, the 8's more "poetic" presentation tends to reward this type of material.
6. The music over both phones was still very enjoyable, even after repeated listening. I do believe though that it (and Fragile as well) would have benefited from a straight transfer to DSD on SACD.

 
I actually posted a peculiar analogy about the 2 phones a while ago, in that they "are like tigers and leopards, from the same genetic family, but very different animals altogether. Likewise, the Ed 10 and Ed 8 may share the same genes in terms of timbre, but the overall balance and soundstage are as different as stripes (Ed 10) and spots (Ed 8)." At this stage, I'd say that I prefer the stripes (precision) of the 10 over the spots (warmth) of the 8. Others may feel differently. Either way, I'm glad I have access to both of them...

 

[Arnaldo]

As per another one of my analogies, "the Ed 10 are like top athletes, in need of a perfectly balanced diet to keep performing at top level. If you're gonna feed them junk food, then you should expect junk to come out." With that in mind, I agree that - within certain limits - a discussion about sources is quite relevant to this thread. I'm actually considering modding my Sony SCD-XA5400ES as an intermediary step before any major upgrades, and would welcome input on Modwright, VSE or other modifiers...
 
Quote:

No one would be that stupid to buy a US$20K+ source just to hope that it would make the ED10 different. The ED10 sounds just as it is, not easy to like but still outsines the LCD2 by far in some aspects, but it will sound that way no matter it is matched with an iphone 4 or the Esoteric K-01 -> Leben setup...
 

 

 

[warp08]

Quote:

As per another one of my analogies, "the Ed 10 are like top athletes, in need of a perfectly balanced diet to keep performing at top level. If you're gonna feed them junk food, then you should expect junk to come out." With that in mind, I agree that - within certain limits - a discussion about sources is quite relevant to this thread. I'm actually considering modding my Sony SCD-XA5400ES as an intermediary step before any major upgrades, and would welcome input on Modwright, VSE or other modifiers...
 

 

The XA5400ES is one of better post-SCD-1 designs.  I've never owned one but I did own a Modwright NS9100ES Signature Truth package for about 6 months.  The sound signature was not as good as the Cary 303T Pro that replaced it, although I never bothered to put some good tubes in it, used the stock ones.
 
In general, I'd avoid modded players of any kind because of the relatively high failure rate over time.  Not to say that they don't improve the sonic performance of stock players, but their extent varies, and they are tradeoffs and resale could prove troublesome, depending on who modded and what was being modded, etc.  Of course, the premise is that for comparatively small investment you get similar or equivalent performance of the high-end sources without the huge pricetag attached.  I'm not sure I buy into that based on my experience.  
 
If you want a Porsche, you can sink in 30 grand to tune the heck out of a Civic to do amazing things.  But it still won't handle and feel like a Porsche.  So, in the end, you may still end up buying a Porsche.
 
Sorry about the fuzzy iPhone shot.  I've bought this on Audiogon for about 30% list in 9/10 condition.  I ended up trading it, because I couldn't sell it.  I had no mechanical issues with it, though, or any issues for that matter during my limited ownership.  
 

 

 

[ktsai1283]

Not a whole lot of people really chiming in on the ED.10s anymore in general.  I do find it interesting that in the beginning this thread started off with sounds great right out the iPod, to damn I need to sell my car so I can buy a source to make these things sing (BTW, traffic or not I won't trade my CTS-V for Esoteric gear  

).  I for one have tried to listen to it every which way that I have available to me, and I feel like the best I can do is use a really good amp and call it a day.
 

 
 

 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

1. The the 8 is smoother, while the 10 is more detailed. But both are miles ahead of my fading memories of the Denon AH-D7000 in terms of transparency and soundstaging.

That sounds pretty promising for my prospects with the 8.  If you remember, does the bass go deeper/lower on the ED8 or the D7000?  As I explained in the other thread I think the S Logic may make the graphs slightly suspect.

 

[Skylab]

I hate to keep being the counter-argument, but from my comparisons, the Ed 8 did not actually lack detail compared to the Ed 10 except in the bass.  The Ed 10 has better bass texture and definition, which yields better bass detail.  But in the mids and treble, the Ed 8 were smoother AND just as detailed - the Ed 10's treble peaks can hyper accentuate some details, but that does not actually make it more detailed, IMO.

 

[Arnaldo]

It's funny, but I think we actually agree over the Ed 10's mid and treble details (in red), as well as over the Ed 8's smoothness (in blue).
 

1. Jon Anderson's voice sounded raspier on the 10, but strikingly realistic. On the 8, his voice was somewhat rounder.
2. With the backup vocals, it was easier to detect individual - and rather nasal - voices on the 10, while the 8 made the chorus better integrated as a whole.
3. Using video jargon, while the 10 seems to offers a higher pixel count, it comes with a very analytical view of the analog masters' inherent limitations. OTOH, the 8's more "poetic" presentation tends to reward this type of material.

 
What's interesting is that our disagreement seems to be really over a matter of taste: I prefer the Ed 10's overly clinical view, while you seem to prefer the Ed 8's smoother presentation.
 
But two issues that I'd like to raise are, (1) the Ed 10's very detailed presentation of the background, and (2) although the 10's bass has better detail, I really prefer the punchier bass of the Ed 8. Actually, because my comparison between them was based on an acoustic song, there wasn't much chance to mention the 8's bass.
 
Quote:

I hate to keep being the counter-argument, but from my comparisons, the Ed 8 did not actually lack detail compared to the Ed 10 except in the bass.  The Ed 10 has better bass texture and definition, which yields better bass detail.  But in the mids and treble, the Ed 8 were smoother AND just as detailed - the Ed 10's treble peaks can hyper accentuate some details, but that does not actually make it more detailed, IMO.

 

 

[Arnaldo]

I still had the Denon AH-D7000 when I got my Ed 8 LE and a quick comparison between them revealed the Ed 8 to be on a different level. One of the first things I noticed was the depth and precision of the Ed 8's bass. It just had more of a controlled impact than the D7000, which in comparison felt rather loose and boomy. The D7000 also suffered from a moderate mid-bass emphasis, which tended to overwhelm the mid frequencies, specially in dense musical passages. Anyway, all these impressions are of course purely personal and devoid of any measurements to back them up!
 
Quote:

That sounds pretty promising for my prospects with the 8.  If you remember, does the bass go deeper/lower on the ED8 or the D7000?  As I explained in the other thread I think the S Logic may make the graphs slightly suspect.

 

[Skylab]

 
Quote:

 
What's interesting is that our disagreement seems to be really over a matter of taste: I prefer the Ed 10's overly clinical view, while you seem prefer the Ed 8's smoother presentation.
 
Two issues that I'd like to raise though are, (1) the Ed 10's very detailed presentation of the background, and (2) that although the 10's bass has better detail, I really prefer the punchier bass of the Ed 8. Actually, because my comparison between them was based on an acoustic song, there wasn't much chance to mention the 8's bass.
 

 
I agree with you on all the above

 
 

 

[Arnaldo]

In reality, I have no complaints about the SCD-XA5400ES' performance. It's just that constant feeling that your source's analog stage could be a bit more transparent. Regardless, I'm a bit apprehensive anyway about the practical aspects of dealing with tubes. So, I'm likely to heed your wise advice for now and wait for my real Porshe to come along...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by warp08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The XA5400ES is one of better post-SCD-1 designs.  I've never owned one but I did own a Modwright NS9100ES Signature Truth package for about 6 months.  The sound signature was not as good as the Cary 303T Pro that replaced it, although I never bothered to put some good tubes in it, used the stock ones.
 
In general, I'd avoid modded players of any kind because of the relatively high failure rate over time.  Not to say that they don't improve the sonic performance of stock players, but their extent varies, and they are tradeoffs and resale could prove troublesome, depending on who modded and what was being modded, etc.  Of course, the premise is that for comparatively small investment you get similar or equivalent performance of the high-end sources without the huge pricetag attached.  I'm not sure I buy into that based on my experience.  
 
If you want a Porsche, you can sink in 30 grand to tune the heck out of a Civic to do amazing things.  But it still won't handle and feel like a Porsche.  So, in the end, you may still end up buying a Porsche...

 

 

[songlove]

it is really expensive one instead, I hope I can hear it before purchasing one.....

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I still had the Denon AH-D7000 when I got my Ed 8 LE and a quick comparison between them revealed the Ed 8 to be on a different level. One of the first things I noticed was the depth and precision of the Ed 8's bass. It just had more of a controlled impact than the D-7000, which in comparison felt rather loose and boomy. The D-7000 also suffered from a moderate mid-bass emphasis, which tended to overwhelm the mid frequencies, specially in dense musical passages. Anyway, all these impressions are of course purely personal and devoid of any measurements to back them up!
 

Thank you!

 

[googleli]

I just came home from from auditioning the Esoteric K-01 and the Accuphase C-3800 flagship preamp via headphone out. I believe, save for a P01+D01+G0Rb setup,  this is simply the most lavish headphone experience one can have on Planet Earth. It was an eye-opening experience. I also tried the K-01 with and without the G-0Rb addon. I am astonished at what true high-end gear can achieve, to say the least. I tried the setup with speakers, but most of my 6-hour session was spent on the ED10 and LCD2, with the Accuphase flagship and with my Leben - Yes, I also tried the Esoteric K-01 flagship one box CD/SACD player with my Leben, which I am glad to say, will become my home setup in about a week's time.

 
Now I must calm down. I thought IEMs were the best I could get a few years back. After I got the Leben and LCD2 with the Esoteric D-07 I thought nothing can be better. Yet once I am immersed in the high-end gear today, I feel that I will have to hear what is true music all over again.
 
On the ED10 - I don't think every owner needs to have a US$20K+ source - but after today I realize that a high-end source does solve the problems, and the once formidable trebles suddenly sounded so lush and sweet - sibilance was totally eliminated - making the colored treble to shine rather than to punish, as a plus rather than a minus, to be extremely detailed and smooth rather than coarse and grainy with cheaper source  (by detailed I don't mean the effect of adding a few dBs to that range). But don't get me wrong - it is still the same ED10 and it does sound bright, and those who hate it probably will still do even with the one of the highest end sources in the world.  But yes, the Esoteric K-01 is such a source component. 
 
Will post my comments on the audition later.

 

[arnaud]

Googleli,
Nice to read your impressions, and good for you in regards to the k01 purchase! I am so vicariously living through your posts! Did you get a chance to compare it to the p03/d03? Also, what did you think of effect of the external clock?

I am pretty sure many people are missing this interesting discussion on esoteric gear and particularly k01, which is unfortunate. Since this is off topic to the current thread, do you mind posting your k01 specific impressions here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/newestpost/533409 ?

Cheers, arnaud

 

[warp08]

Quote:

In reality, I have no complaints about the SCD-XA5400ES' performance. It's just that constant feeling that your source's analog stage could be a bit more transparent. Regardless, I'm a bit apprehensive anyway about the practical aspects of dealing with tubes. So, I'm likely to heed your wise advice for now and wait for my real Porshe to come along...
 

 

Nah, don't worry about tubes.  The problem is they make so few new ones these days like EAT, for example and they don't come cheap.  No, Sir.  
 
With my previous source, the Cary 303T Pro I always used the solid-state output, not the tube stage (it was switchable on the fly).  But the EAT KT88 output tubes on my Cary SLI80 amp nicely compensated for the treble harshness of the TWag recabled Edition 10s.  With that amp, they were very enjoyable.
 
Sometimes tubes are your friend, because they are a lot easier to roll than having to replace the component itself if you wish to make fine modifications to selected sonic attributes.  And it's fun!  And they look good in the dark.  Have I sold you yet?