Trying to get into Vinyl - Advice

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly which "older high end table" do you have in mind that is available used for around 400USD? I just did a quick search of both eBay and audiogon and found the pickings pretty slim. Also keep in mind that high end turntables usually do not come with tonearms so picking, finding and then mounting a suitable tonearm is another ordeal for a newbie to go through.

I was thinking of decks like the Thorens TD125/126, Ariston RD80, Technics SL1100/120/150 and older spec Sota Sapphire as well as the higher end Denon direct drives. These all turn up regularly on Audiogon generally with SME tonearms in the case of the Thorens and Technics.

Right now on there you have

Thorens TD320 $400 ( a little overpriced maybe)
Denon Dp-80 $500
Linn Axis $495
Oracle Alexandria $550

any of which will kick the arse of any Rega / Music Hall / Pro-ject table at the same price.

Also there are some other nice Japanese direct drives which are more automated if you are looking for convenience.

Luxman PD284 $280 (a little overpriced but beautiful all the same)
Sansui 636 wants $400 (I'd offer 350 maybe)

and as far as upgrading tonearms there is a Linn Basik Plus for 170USD

I wouldn't chance ebay unless the vendor can pack professionally or else is within driving distance or willing to meet half way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lastly by "out of date" I was referring to whether or not the turntable is still being manufactured, which has a great deal to do with the ability of one to get parts and service for the unit.

Of the above decks Thorens older models are well supported by enthusiasts worldwide despite the fact the company itself is less responsive, Linn and Sota continue to support and offer upgrades. Oracle I'm not sure about but would probaly risk as they are straightforward belt drives.

The Japanese decks are more difficult to source parts for if there is a problem as the control chips are unlikely to exist outside of Japan and US or European counterparts are unlikely to be compatible. This is why they don't hold their price so well unless it's something like a Micro Seiki or a Trio L0-7D where there are enthusiasts remanufacturing the parts.
On the whole though Japanese decks from this period are so well made that they are usually still going strong and are very reliable as a rule.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Memepool,

Excellent post with a wealth of information. I must say that I jumped the gun with my initial criticism and I do apologize. Your suggestions are very good and if I was in the market for a turntable I'd surely make the effort to hunt some of them down.

 

[Uncle Erik]

If you'd like to do some reading before you make a purchase, try these articles:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html

I read through all the Vinyl Anachronist articles and learned quite a bit. My advice would be to buy the least expensive good 'table you can find. I was just about to spend a bit on one, but came across a used Rega Planar 3 for $200. I bought that thinking I could turn it around if I didn't like it. But I ended up loving it. I'm glad I didn't pay more.

The Planar 3 may or may not be the right deck for you, but read as much as you can before buying and don't spend too much.

 

[JadeEast]

Deck = Technics 1200 for around $250 used
Phono= Hagerman Bugle $150
Cart= AT440ML for $85
and you wil be set.

 

[insidiousness]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been looking to piece together a vinyl setup recently. I am a 100% newbie to this and I have a very small budget. For the past few months I've been looking to buy a TT at local thrift stores and pawn shops, but I haven't found anything recently. I've also been periodically looking on eBay at vintage TTs. I've read most of the applicable threads on vinyl already and I think I want to get an old Technics deck. I've got an SL-1350 on my eBay watch list, but I haven't bid on it yet. Specific questions that I have: What is a cheap way to get a phono stage? What kind of cartridges fit the Technics deck and where would I buy a new one? When I finally do get a usable setup, how do I tell if a record is good or not? Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks a bunch in advance -Ingo

Your starting off wrong. look into a used AR or some other belt drive system. Something belt drive with a good tonearm. A bluePoint needle is a good starting point. At this point, the LP's will most likey be your highest cost, not to forget a good phono drive!

You may just want a good DAC and a little cotton in your ears!

 

[daggerlee]

If you're handy with a soldering iron, you should consider the Hagtech Bugle phono stage. It'll run you about $60 but it's reputed to compete in sound with phono stages up to $600 in price.

 

[Thelonious Monk]

just lurking around here, but i've never heard of the bugle. i'll read up, it's always good to have more options. interesting, variable eq setting!

 

[Ingo]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I didn't end up buying the Technics deck that was in my first post.

To make things a little clearer I'll give you guys what I think my expectations are for a vinyl setup. I'm not looking to get ultra hi-fi sound out of this. I don't have good speakers, speaker amps, or any true hi-fi sources at my disposal. My digital rig is very modest as far as head-fi is concerned and I don't even look to equal that in an analog setup.

I would like to buy a decent, working deck for as cheap as possible and work up from there. If it's possible I'd like to spend less than $100 initially on just a turntable. I want something that will work well, but I don't care if it has incredible resolution or anything like that. I simply want to try out records.

If any of you happen upon something that you think might be something I'd be interested in while browsing eBay, I would greatly appreciate it if you would give me a PM or an email.

Remember, I have zero experience with turntables, so I don't even know how to sort out all of your opinions. If any of you feel compelled to make specific recommendations that would be fantastic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidiousness /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your starting off wrong. look into a used AR or some other belt drive system. Something belt drive with a good tonearm. A bluePoint needle is a good starting point. At this point, the LP's will most likey be your highest cost, not to forget a good phono drive! You may just want a good DAC and a little cotton in your ears!

I admitedly know nothing, but it seems there are people that think belt-drives are superior and there are people who feel that direct-drives are superior. I know that all of the Technics decks that I've seen recommended are direct-drive as well as many others.

As for getting a good DAC and putting cotton in my ears: I'm happy with my digital setup so I guess I could just try some cotton right now. I'm not the typical head-fier who has great aspirations of one day owning an audio system that makes hardened men cry because of the beautiful music it produces. I'm happy with living near the bottom of the hi-fi mountain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daggerlee /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're handy with a soldering iron, you should consider the Hagtech Bugle phono stage. It'll run you about $60 but it's reputed to compete in sound with phono stages up to $600 in price.

Well I wouldn't call myself handy with a soldering iron, but I have soldered before. Also, for a $60 solution I'd be willing to learn how to solder more proficiently if needed.

 

[JadeEast]

$100 Audio-Technica AT-PL50 ATPL50 at lpgear

 

[infinitesymphony]

Where do idler wheel motors like those used in many Dual turntables fit into the ranking among belt and direct drive tables?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif $100 Audio-Technica AT-PL50 ATPL50 at lpgear

Not a good buy. If you don't want to spend 500USD on the likes of a Pro-Ject / Rega / Music Hall / Goldring table then you are pretty much wasting your time with vinyl as you won't get anything decent cheaper than this aside from perhaps the basic belt driven Technics.

These are really the entry level for High Fidelity sound that will be the equal of a decent basic modern digital set up.

If you don't want to spend this much to try out a new format which you are not sure is for you, which is eminently sensible, then a good 2nd hand deck is by far the the best option and can be had for less than 100USD.

Look in your local classified adds newpaper, thrift stores and charity shops and ask neighbours and relatives. There are millions of old turntables out there, many of which are decent quality often simply because they belong to an era when consumer electronics per se were better made and not so disposable.

Look at the list in my post above for some pointers to specific models.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony Where do idler wheel motors like those used in many Dual turntables fit into the ranking among belt and direct drive tables?

There should be no issue of "ranking" as such as far as what is the best method to drive a turntable platter is concerned. Sure many vinylistas will argue endlessly about the merits of this or that direct drive or belt drive or whatever but ultimately there are good and bad examples of every type and a lot depends on the engineering quality of the rest of the unit and how various inherent design issues have been addressed.

Historically idler drives were most common in the '50s and '60s but were gradually surplanted in the domestic market by belt drives because they were easier and cheaper to build. In the professional market idler drives were surplanted by direct drives in the '70s again largely for reasons of cost, and this direct drive technology filtered down into the domestic market by the late 70's / early '80s but often in an increasingly compromised form.

There have always been die hard advocates of the various famous broadcast idler decks like the Garrard 301/401 or Thorens TD124 but recently there has been a lot of renewed interest in more domestc idler drives especially the Lenco's. This is because in many parts of the world you can find them for next to nothing. There is a famously huge thread on Audiogon detailing all the various approaches people have taken to tweaking them up with new plinths and tonearms etc... you can read more about them here also http://www.btinternet.com/~a.d.richa...enco_land.html

The Dual idlers seem thus far to have escaped this attention. I have never had one but I suspect they are not as easily modified perhaps? Even in stock form though they are very good quality decks and would be a great introduction to vinyl.

 

[JadeEast]

Not a good buy I agree $100 isn't suficient to get anything
more than something used, but thats a crap shoot you could find
a TD124,sme3009 with a shure V15iii at a garage sale for $50 bucks
or a table with serious problems and a worn out cart for $50. The
AT at lp gear is probably the cheapest playback I could find new,
looking at ebay at the buy now I saw a couple of Pioneers that looked
OK at <$100. Its really easy at the point that the OP is at to throw
good money after bad money. Good cheap digital is possible good
cheap analog seems to be a bit harder. My orignal recomendation
of a technics 1200, AT440ml and a Hagerman bugle is obtainable
for less than $500. At $100 buying used is a crap shoot especially
if you have no knowledge of what you are looking at. Options for
$100 new are limited, if you could get more $$ it would be alot
better money spent in the long run.

 

[trains are bad]

Quote:

If you don't want to spend 500USD on the likes of a Pro-Ject / Rega / Music Hall / Goldring table then you are pretty much wasting your time with vinyl as you won't get anything decent cheaper than this aside from perhaps the basic belt driven Technics. These are really the entry level for High Fidelity sound that will be the equal of a decent basic modern digital set up. If you don't want to spend this much to try out a new format which you are not sure is for you, which is eminently sensible, then a good 2nd hand deck is by far the the best option and can be had for less than 100USD.

needed repeating

 

[Ingo]

I just bought a Sanyo TP-1020 at my local used music store. I paid $40 for it and it has a 7-day return policy.

I noticed that Memepool listed the Sanyo TP-1010 and TP-1100 on his list of turntables (linked in the beginning of this thread by Memepool).

Anyhow, the table I bought has a Stanton RS5000DJ on it. I have no idea what shape the stylus is in and I have no idea what to look for as far as wear. I would assume that like headphones, any cart. with "DJ" in the name is probably not going to be audiophile-ready. Any suggestions for a replacement?

Now I have to find a phono-pre quickly so I can at least test out this unit to see if it will even play a record acurately. Does Guitar Center or somewhere else carry a cheap phono stage?

Ok, finally, (DON'T LAUGH) how do I put a record on? I have honestly never even seen this done before in person.

Thanks again for everyone's opinions!

-Ingo

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just bought a Sanyo TP-1020 at my local used music store. I paid $40 for it and it has a 7-day return policy. I noticed that Memepool listed the Sanyo TP-1010 and TP-1100 on his list of turntables (linked in the beginning of this thread by Memepool). Anyhow, the table I bought has a Stanton RS5000DJ on it. I have no idea what shape the stylus is in and I have no idea what to look for as far as wear. I would assume that like headphones, any cart. with "DJ" in the name is probably not going to be audiophile-ready. Any suggestions for a replacement? Now I have to find a phono-pre quickly so I can at least test out this unit to see if it will even play a record acurately. Does Guitar Center or somewhere else carry a cheap phono stage? Ok, finally, (DON'T LAUGH) how do I put a record on? I have honestly never even seen this done before in person. Thanks again for everyone's opinions! -Ingo

The "DJ" in a phono cartridge means that the needle and cantilever are constructed so that one can "back spin" the record without harming the needle and cantilever. "Back spinning" is playing or spinning the record backwards in order to locate an exact spot within a track. Also a DJ type cartridge will allow one to "scratch" which is term given when hip-hop and rap DJs move the record back and forth with their hands while the needle is sitting on the record.

As to whether a given DJ type is worn or audiophile quality that's something one needs to judge by visual inspection for wear and playing a record with it to hear how it sounds.

To play a record:

Place the LP on top of the platter, the platter is the large round thing that rotates, so that the small hole in the center of the LP fits over the spindle, the spindle is the little rod in the middle of the platter. Turn on the power, select the proper speed, usually 33 1/3 for 12" LPs and carefully place the tonearm down on the LP near the outside edge. Then listen and enjoy the wonders of analog sound.