[Ingo]

I've been looking to piece together a vinyl setup recently. I am a 100% newbie to this and I have a very small budget. For the past few months I've been looking to buy a TT at local thrift stores and pawn shops, but I haven't found anything recently. I've also been periodically looking on eBay at vintage TTs.

I've read most of the applicable threads on vinyl already and I think I want to get an old Technics deck.

I've got an SL-1350 on my eBay watch list, but I haven't bid on it yet.

Specific questions that I have:

What is a cheap way to get a phono stage?

What kind of cartridges fit the Technics deck and where would I buy a new one?

When I finally do get a usable setup, how do I tell if a record is good or not?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks a bunch in advance

-Ingo

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif What is a cheap way to get a phono stage?

Steal one?

No? Then there are quite a few entry-level mm stages for around US$ 30 in shops like Radioshack, which already do the job. A tad better are entry-level hifi models like the NAD PP & PP-2. Usually at least as good or even better are the phono stages you'll find in vintage receivers, integrated amps and especially pre-amps. And, of course, there are plenty of diy models you could build yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif What kind of cartridges fit the Technics deck and where would I buy a new one?

That's standard 1/2" mount. I'm not exactly familiar with that arm though, but I'd suspect it to be on the medium heavy side with some 17 g incl. headshell. Hence I'd recommend to go for something not too compliant like the Denon DL110 & DL160. But, of course, it would make sense to identify the Audio Technica that's already mounted first - maybe you can get away with just a replacement needle... Where to buy? E.g. from specialised online vendors (in the US for example KAB USA, LPGear, TTVJ...) - or from a trusty brick & mortar HiFi store in your neighbourhood...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I finally do get a usable setup, how do I tell if a record is good or not?

You'd best visually inspect a couple of new ones at a record store - from these impressions you should be able to conclude how a good used one should or shouldn't look like...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Ingo,

Since you didn't state your exact budget (exactly how much is "small"?) it's very difficult to give you specific recommendations. I do know that the good folks over at North Country Audio presently have a couple of very nice deals going on some very nice, good quality turntable setups. Here's the link:

http://www.cadencebuilding.com/caden...ntryaudio.html

Click on the "[size=small]Close-Outs List" and scroll down to first item under "Turntables" to see the one of their better deals. The Rega P2 is a very nice TT and I believe that this one comes with a cartridge. They also have some NAD phono preamps available, I strongly suggest that you give them a call.

[/size]The Technics TT that you're looking at is not a particularly "good" TT and once you take into account the final price (after the auction ends) and the shipping you're probably talking close to $100 with no guarantee.

Yes the Rega does cost 2-1/2 times as much but it would be money well spent and give you a vinyl setup that you could live happily with for quite some time.

By the way, I know about this item since it was featured on Cadence's most recent listserver email.

 

[Ingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ingo, Since you didn't state your exact budget (exactly how much is "small"?) it's very difficult to give you specific recommendations. I do know that the good folks over at North Country Audio presently have a couple of very nice deals going on some very nice, good quality turntable setups. Here's the link: http://www.cadencebuilding.com/caden...ntryaudio.html Click on the "[size=small]Close-Outs List" and scroll down to first item under "Turntables" to see the one of their better deals. The Rega P2 is a very nice TT and I believe that this one comes with a cartridge. They also have some NAD phono preamps available, I strongly suggest that you give them a call. [/size]The Technics TT that you're looking at is not a particularly "good" TT and once you take into account the final price (after the auction ends) and the shipping you're probably talking close to $100 with no guarantee. Yes the Rega does cost 2-1/2 times as much but it would be money well spent and give you a vinyl setup that you could live happily with for quite some time. By the way, I know about this item since it was featured on Cadence's most recent listserver email.

The reason I didn't state my budget is because it's fluid. I want to spend as little as possible to get something that works and sounds good.

I have read (in the other TT threads) that the old Technics decks are comparable if not better than entry level Rega's like the P2.

 

[bigshot]

A used Dual, new cartridge and phono preamp should be doable for around $200. That will sound as good as new turntables that cost three times as much.

See ya
Steve

 

[memepool]

I made a list of no-budget turntables here

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230443

Any of these will satisfy the basic requirements for entry level Hi-Fi sound. Rega turntables are a good introduction and perform very well but are pretty overpriced these days in the USA because of the international currency exchange rates.

Technics like the vintage SL1300 you mentioned are very nice tables. In a different league from the entry level decks from Pro-ject / Music Hall / Rega et al in terms of build quality but let down by a dated tonearm design which makes finding a decent matching Hi-Fi cartridge harder, and therefore most audiophiles have never heard what these decks are capable of.

If you want a totally off-the-peg solution then 500 USD will get you a modern entry level table. But if you don't mind performing rudimentary servicing tasks like changing the bearing oil and fitting a new belt then you can get something just as good for under 100USD if you search around.

For 500 USD you can find some pretty serious 2nd hand decks like the old Thorens TD125/126 or a Technics SL150 / SME3009 which way outperform a Rega and can be further upgraded to equal a newer modern deck into the thousands.

 

[Herandu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif For 500 USD you can find some pretty serious 2nd hand decks like the old Thorens TD125/126 or a Technics SL150 / SME3009 which way outperform a Rega and can be further upgraded to equal a newer modern deck into the thousands.

Whilst I love the SME arms, I do feel that they require a better than average system set up to really show what they are capable of. It's like high grade fuel in a normally aspired car compared to a turbo charged one.The differences in improvements percentage wise is far greater by several factors. I would plump for a Thorens deck with a SME arm in that case myself, and build up on that through careful consideration of the rest of your system. Also consider getting a cheaper cartridge for general use until you can obtain the best benefits from a better than average cartridge. It saves you on stylus wear and you get the hand of things without damaging the stylus. That is very easily done by someone who has been away from Vinyl for a while or never tried it before.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herandu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Whilst I love the SME arms, I do feel that they require a better than average system set up to really show what they are capable of

I think you are probably right but they also have a good resale value so one can always opt for a more modern budget arm like the Rega RB250.

what I was trying to get accros is that the current crop of budget turntables like the Music Hall / Rega / Goldring / Pro-ject decks are an all-in-one solution, which is great if you can afford it and are worried aboput getting into things like relubing bearings etc

but if you don't want to spend that kind of money and are willing to do a bit of research and learn how to perform these basic servicing tasks then you can get something almost as good 2nd hand for next to nothing.

Another factor is that the tables you get for 500 USD these days don't really allow much scope for upgrades without selling the whole table and starting again but for 500 on the 2nd hand market you can pick up decks like the higher end Thorens and Technics which are much better engineered than the likes of the Rega P3 and will allow you to make arm upgrades.

The same can be said for the brand new Technics SL1200/1210 which is really a vintage design but can still be bought new.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

While many of the recommendations and suggestions are very good, they make several assumptions about the OP without knowing anything other than the OP is looking for a cheap way to get into vinyl.

Assumptions made:

1) The OP is willing to search for and hunt down one of the recommended turntables. No insights into just where to find these tables has been given or price ranges.

2) The OP is willing to do modifications to the recommended turntable once one has been located. No details on the modifications or how to perform them has been given.

Besides making assumptions about the OP, the posts also go out of their way to dismiss my simple recommendation (a recommendation backed up with information on where to buy the turntable and the cost) and begin a pissing contest over what type of turntable is better.

I have no vested interest in the Rega turntable other than by getting one for the reduced price via the link I gave, one would be able to pick up and complete vinyl playback system with current equipment from a reliable dealer. In other words, minimum amount of hassle and maximum amount of buyer protection.

One of the main reasons that popularity of CDs so quickly overtook that of LPs was and still is their ease of use. Reading the last couple of posts one can easily be lead to believe that nothing has changed in the past twenty years and that setting up vinyl playback system requires vast amounts of knowledge and skill in the workings of turntables, tonearms and cartridges. I'm sorry but that's just not true and for a vinyl newbie I would rather give them simple, straight forward advice rather then scaring them off with all of this talk about hunting down out of date equipment only to have to heavily modify it to obtain a decent playback system.

Now I will go hide under my desk because I'm quite that some fur is gonna fly.

 

[Herandu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Assumptions made: Besides making assumptions about the OP, the posts also go out of their way to dismiss my simple recommendation (a recommendation backed up with information on where to buy the turntable and the cost) and begin a pissing contest over what type of turntable is better.

I am shocked that you should take your time to look far deeper into what has been advised, and then consider it to be a contest of sorts. If that is the sort of attitude portrayed then I can see nobody bothering to speak their mind in order not to offend anyone.

If it is a case where someone needs black & white answers, then the SEARCH feature in head-fi would resolve just about every newbie question I would say. No consideration and options need then to be taken into account, and an easy to access readily available source of the required bits and pieces is at hand with the same ease as a trip to Wall Mart etc. Budget? What budget?

Unfortunately real life is not like that. Neither do I think it is the job of any of us to spend our time listing various sources where each and every item can be obtained, at what price, who to ask for by name, etc. etc. That's the thinking process of a lazy person who wishes to do nothing other than to pick up the phone and submit his credit card number to the vendor in return for the bits and pieces that were listed on head-fi.
If that is the object of the exercise by Ingo and Ralphp then I sure can't be bothered to do the donkey work in order to be patted on the back.
A knowledgeable audiophile has gained his experience through trial and error, considerations with respect to budget, upgrade path for the future, size of premise etc. Only a complete nutter with loads of cash to burn and absolutely no knowledge about hifi would rush out blindly and snap up a system he has no idea about if they work together in synergy.

As for the various comments form others: I rather 100 comments that I can weigh up, than an unjustified single answer. We live in a democracy and don't need to be told what wis good for us and should accept as gospel. Other contrasting views are allowed, unless you live in the US of course.

 

[bhjazz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif A used Dual, new cartridge and phono preamp should be doable for around $200. That will sound as good as new turntables that cost three times as much. See ya Steve

I can actually supply that! I have a Dual CS-431 and a Sumiko Phono preamp that I can drop a Shure cartridge on. None of the items have major hours on them. I don't want this to sound like a sales pitch, but PM me if you are interested.

As for the thread in general: don't get too deep into it from the start. Many basic tt designs can get you into vinyl without a huge cost. I, personally, give high votes to older Duals and Thorens tables. If you find that you are getting some enjoyment out of the basic designs, then move up. Seriously: dropping big bux into it early on, then finding that you dont like the maintenance or tweaking means it might just gather dust. That's no fun!

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Herandu,

It's not the number of comments or the poster's willing to offer advice that I have any problems with, it's just that a simple request for some straight forward advice turns into a contest on who knows the cheapest way to modify a mid-fi turntable into a hi-end hot rod.

I'm also not against members telling about how they did, in fact, turn a mid-fi turntable into a hi-end turntable, it's just that this is not the proper thread for that kind of bravado. This kind of thing happens over and over again here on Head-Fi. The OP ask a question about headphones and the then the thread slowly (or in some cases, not so slowly) turns into an amp war.

I also agree with you that people sometimes do not use the "search" feature to get an answer but that's not the case here since to quote the OP:
Quote:

I've read most of the applicable threads on vinyl already and I think I want to get an old Technics deck.

Perhaps the OP after doing some research was still quite confused and wanted addition input.

And the last point of which we are in agreement on is that a seasoned audiophile, as you put it "has gained his experience through trial and error, considerations with respect to budget, upgrade path for the future, size of premise etc." But that may not be the case when a newbie is involved and the OP is indeed a vinyl newbie. When it comes to newbies I try to follow a different rule: Keep it simple, s$%p*d!

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have no vested interest in the Rega turntable other than by getting one for the reduced price via the link I gave, one would be able to pick up and complete vinyl playback system with current equipment from a reliable dealer. In other words, minimum amount of hassle and maximum amount of buyer protection. One of the main reasons that popularity of CDs so quickly overtook that of LPs was and still is their ease of use. Reading the last couple of posts one can easily be lead to believe that nothing has changed in the past twenty years and that setting up vinyl playback system requires vast amounts of knowledge and skill in the workings of turntables, tonearms and cartridges. I'm sorry but that's just not true and for a vinyl newbie I would rather give them simple, straight forward advice rather then scaring them off with all of this talk about hunting down out of date equipment only to have to heavily modify it to obtain a decent playback system.

Sorry I just think even your discounted Rega at 400USD is too much to pay for an entry level turntable when there are so many fine decks to be had 2nd hand for peanuts. See the list I posted a link to above.

Many people want to check out vinyl and find what all the fuss is about and I see no reason why they should have to spend 400USD or more on a pretty basic turntable.

I have no problem with Rega decks they are very good per se but the price is just a bit too steep over in the USA at the moment.

A much better way to spend 400USD is on an older high end table which has the added benefit of being upgradeable in the future if and when the desire grabs you and even in stock form will generally outperform a modern entry level deck by a comfortable margin.

"out-of-date-equipment" ? what ?

we are talking about record players? how much improvement do you think there has been in the last 25 years? Certainly the Rega P(lannar) 2/3 have changed little since the mid '80s.

 

[lini]

ralphp: What are you complaining about - and why?

Ingo has asked three fairly precise questions, and you haven't answered a single one. If anyone has started to derail the thread, I fear it was you...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry I just think even your discounted Rega at 400USD is too much to pay for an entry level turntable when there are so many fine decks to be had 2nd hand for peanuts. See the list I posted a link to above. ...... A much better way to spend 400USD is on an older high end table which has the added benefit of being upgradeable in the future if and when the desire grabs you and even in stock form will generally outperform a modern entry level deck by a comfortable margin. "out-of-date-equipment" ? what ? we are talking about record players? how much improvement do you think there has been in the last 25 years? Certainly the Rega P(lannar) 2/3 have changed little since the mid '80s.

Now we seem to have the thread somewhat back on topic. Regarding your points, the Rega P-2 turntable with a rb250 tonearm is available for 245USD and, as I stated, there is also a cartridge and NAD phono preamp available at similar discounts. However, you are correct in that 400USD is a bit much for the Rega turntable.


Exactly which "older high end table" do you have in mind that is available used for around 400USD? I just did a quick search of both eBay and audiogon and found the pickings pretty slim. Also keep in mind that high end turntables usually do not come with tonearms so picking, finding and then mounting a suitable tonearm is another ordeal for a newbie to go through.

Lastly by "out of date" I was referring to whether or not the turntable is still being manufactured, which has a great deal to do with the ability of one to get parts and service for the unit.

And speaking of the small degree that turntables have changed within the last 20 to 25 years, Linn recently announced some new upgrades to their 30+ year old LP12 turntable in addition to an updated EKOS tonearm (now called the EKOS SE).