Too many people here use great cans with bad amps or no amps
Jan 7, 2010 at 11:11 AM Post #346 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by chintimin /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Actually, a lot of sound cards DO NOT have the power. DT770s will sound TERRIBLE on many many many sound cards, I know from experience - the bass will lose power and slur over the mids, the highs will sound tinny, and the entire sound basically dissolves. 701s sound anemic as **** through a sound card.

Also, people don't buy sound cards for their amps, they buy them for their SQ and features, which don't change the fact that whatever sound coming out of them quite likely has no ****ing POWER behind it.



2 new soundcards, namely the Asus Xonar STX/ST and the HT Omega Claro Halo has a chip amplifier with it(TPA6120A2). While it cant compete with good dedicated amplifiers, it is not something to laugh about either. They both go for around $200, and i dont think there are any other products in the price range that can compete with these 2.

I am guessing you haven't tried any of the two cards mentioned above.

Hopefully in the near future, there will be better soundcards which will be able to compete with dedicated components.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 11:20 AM Post #347 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by InFn-0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
2 new soundcards, namely the Asus Xonar STX/ST and the HT Omega Claro Halo has a chip amplifier with it(TPA6120A2). While it cant compete with good dedicated amplifiers, it is not something to laugh about either. They both go for around $200, and i dont think there are any other products in the price range that can compete with these 2.

I am guessing you haven't tried any of the two cards mentioned above.

Hopefully in the near future, there will be better soundcards which will be able to compete with dedicated components.



I think the concern is that the performance of amps/dacs depends so much on the quality of the power supplied to them. Once you depend on a computer's supply to do that, things get ticklish and compromised.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 11:23 AM Post #348 of 505
I know they are not the best available, but they are not as bad as chintimin was making them out to be. I dont want to prove anything, its just that i dont like it when people diss something which they have never tried.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 11:32 AM Post #349 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by InFn-0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I know they are not the best available, but they are not as bad as chintimin was making them out to be. I dont want to prove anything, its just that i dont like it when people diss something which they have never tried.


I can certainly agree that I'd rather use one of those cards than a regular HP output on a computer or iPod!!
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It may well sound pretty darned good too compared to the lesser alternative.
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Jan 7, 2010 at 1:23 PM Post #350 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think the concern is that the performance of amps/dacs depends so much on the quality of the power supplied to them. Once you depend on a computer's supply to do that, things get ticklish and compromised.


Depends very much on the quality of the PSU... The PSU in my headphone amps or receiver look ridiculous compared to the one I got in my computer. It´s built for overclocking so you need very stable voltages here too. I used to be into overclocking and then stable power is very important
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With modern PSUs you even get separate lines you can dedicate one to your audio gear. Even though to make it operate properly you better attach to some more to it. Since it works most efficiently under some load.

The big drawback with computer as source is the fan noise. Can be hard to built a totally silent computer even if you use water cooling. If you at the same time want performance out of it lol

noise floor is pure black both analogue out of my soundcard or using my DAC with my low impedance headphones so can´t really complain
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Jan 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM Post #351 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
First there are two types of headphone listeners: multitaskers, and isolationists (serious listeners.) I'm an isolationist. I listen in a dead silent room with my eyes shut. My advice is for those serious listeners. Multitaskers, just use ipod earbuds and be done with it, cause there is no way you can understand
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When I first got into headphones I made the same mistake as the OP. Let me tell you new folks. Spend your money to DECIDE what headphones you like best. Drive them with your soundcard. Buy a pair of HD600's, K701's, Grado 225's, etc. Decide which flavor you percieve to be to your liking. Then build your amp and DAC to match the headphones.

To many old timers want to put the cart before the horse when giving advice to newbies. The fact is that the greatest difference in sound comes from the headphones. You simply must decide which house flavor you like best first. Don't be a dumb-A like me and build a $2000 system around 300 ohm Senns and then listen to Grados for the first time out of an ipod and fall in love!

Goes like this : decide on the headphone (sell the ones you didn't like on Head-fi), build a Soha II amp for $200, buy the best most expensive DAC you can afford. Then start saving for a high end amp. Then maybe buy your fav companies flagship headphones.


.



I vote this, plus find people who listen to the same type of music as you do, which someone else suggested elsewhere. It's not entirely fool-proof, but it'll give someone a much better shot at getting the right gear for them.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 2:02 PM Post #352 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif
What if you have multiple cans?
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There is always one you prefer, keep that one. Others just add to the confusion
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Jan 7, 2010 at 2:11 PM Post #353 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is always one you prefer, keep that one. Others just add to the confusion
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While that is a nice simple answer that may work for you, it may not work for everyone. Some people actually have multiple headphones because they have different sound signatures that may be preferred for certain types of music and/or at different times. Certainly much easier to do with headphones versus speakers.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 2:28 PM Post #354 of 505
When I first entered this hobby, I started investigating the best high-end, widely available headphone at the time. My research seemed to keep bringing up the Sennheiser HD580 and then the HD600. Trouble is, those headphones had an impedance (300ohms) that far exceeded other widely-available "hi-fi" headphones available at the time - Koss, Sony, etc.

The higher impedance meant that they weren't being fed with optimal amplification when used with portable CD and tape players, due to the voltage limitations. (No one was interested in sound cards at the time.) That led Chu Moy to build the first CMoy. Soon after, Apheared built a CMoy and put it in a mint tin, and the rest is history.

Unfortunately, this same voltage limitation is part of what started this thread and causes most people in this thread to doubt the capability of sound cards directly feeding high-end headphones, such as Sennheisers.

Let's look at a few numbers ...
Here's a typical set of sound pressure values for a baseline:
Normal speaking voice: 65-70 dB
Orchestral climax: 105 dB
Live Rock music: 120 dB+
Pain Threshold: 130 dB
Jet aircraft: 140-180 dB

Now, if we look at the HD580/HD600, it has an efficiency of 97dB at 1mW, along with a maximum sound pressure capability of 116dB (HeadWize - Technical Paper: Understanding Headphone Power Requirements by Dennis Bohn). If we're talking about peaks - not just steady-state listening levels, and the difference between listening levels and peaks are part of what define "high-fidelity", then we'd want an amplifier with the capability to utilize that peak in the Sennheiser headphone of 116dB. The reference above seems to indicate that falls just between an orchestral climax and a live rock concert, so it's not really a stretch to want to have that 116dB available - for peaks. Just figuring for those values, using Ohm's Law and the Power relationship, we have P = (V^2)/R. Or, to find the voltage needed, V = SQRT(P x R).

We start with 97dB and 1mW. Every 3dB increase is going to double the needed power. So, 100dB needs 2mW, 103dB needs 4mW, 106dB needs 8mW and 109dB needs 16mW. Let's just stop there - barely perceived above the volume level of an orchestral climax. (Note that it may still not be as great a level as a single cymbal crash transient.) The voltage needed at 109dB is SQRT(0.016 x 300), or 2.19V. Since music is reproduced in alternating voltages (sine wave), the complete voltage swing needed is +or- 2.19, or 4.38V. Note that the typical power supply for a PC is only 5V, assuming no losses. Every opamp needs a base-loaded voltage, so the sound card will probably need at least 1 or 2 volts more than the 4.38V, so the sound card's ability is already impacted.

However, if we want to utilize near full capability of the headphone, we need 64mW at 115dB! Using the equations again, that results in +or- 4.38V, or a total swing of 8.76V! This is physically impossible for a sound card to provide! (A CMoy can easily manage it if using 2 x 9V batteries, though.) An amplifier must be able to supply this voltage, even for split-second, transient peaks or clipping/distortion and accompanying degradation in sound quality will occur.

Of course, the same situation existed in the old days with portable CD and tape players, where voltage supplies were often limited to 2 x 1.5V AA or AAA batteries, or at best - a 4.5V AC-DC adapter. Hence, Chu Moy's CMoy.

One might say why would such a high-listening level be needed? Again, one of the primary ways we define "high-fidelity" is the ability to produce a wide difference between sound levels - iow, "dynamic range." Even with the prevalent sound studio producer-compressed music that many of us listen to, a 30dB swing or more is fairly common , at least with transients. Listening at very low levels, you may be able to produce this dynamic range with a Sennheiser connected to a sound card, but you're likely to miss most of the music, too - since the Fletcher-Munson curves for the human ear have the most effect at low levels.

Current ability in amplifiers follows a similar logic, but it's a bit harder to define as easily as voltage was done above.
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EDIT: This is just a simple rough estimate. Typically, RMS voltages are used to calculate power, meaning the voltage peaks must be higher than the values used above. Strictly speaking, the average power is corrected by a factor using the cosine of the angular frequency, or something similar - I'm sure you can all poke holes in the logic above, but maybe it illustrates the physical limitations of sound cards and fits in with the general theme of this thread.
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Jan 7, 2010 at 2:28 PM Post #355 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Smeggy, how does your Wharfdale sound out of an iPod? Is the iPod even capable of producing recognizable music with it. Some of my easier to drive orthos distort so bad on bassy music that I can't recognize the music. I imagine the Wharfdales are even worse.


I totally agree with Smeggy.

Also, the Wharfedale really does need v.powerful amplification unlike most others. It's an unfair can to pull up, you could basically think of it as speaker drivers.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM Post #356 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Let's look at a few numbers ...
Here's a typical set of sound pressure values for a baseline:
Normal speaking voice: 65-70 dB
Orchestral climax: 105 dB
Live Rock music: 120 dB+
Pain Threshold: 130 dB
Jet aircraft: 140-180 dB

Now, if we look at the HD580/HD600, it has an efficiency of 97dB at 1mW, along with a maximum sound pressure capability of 116dB .



Got to be the most irrespossible post I've seen in a while. Typical CDs have a dynamic rang of 30db, So if you are listening to peaks of 120 db, you are subjecting your hearing to 90b+ for hours at a time. Can you say hearing loss? Do I need to speak louder for you to hear ?
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 2:36 PM Post #357 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
First there are two types of headphone listeners: multitaskers, and isolationists (serious listeners.) I'm an isolationist. I listen in a dead silent room with my eyes shut. My advice is for those serious listeners. Multitaskers, just use ipod earbuds and be done with it, cause there is no way you can understand
smily_headphones1.gif



When I first got into headphones I made the same mistake as the OP. Let me tell you new folks. Spend your money to DECIDE what headphones you like best. Drive them with your soundcard. Buy a pair of HD600's, K701's, Grado 225's, etc. Decide which flavor you percieve to be to your liking. Then build your amp and DAC to match the headphones.

To many old timers want to put the cart before the horse when giving advice to newbies. The fact is that the greatest difference in sound comes from the headphones. You simply must decide which house flavor you like best first. Don't be a dumb-A like me and build a $2000 system around 300 ohm Senns and then listen to Grados for the first time out of an ipod and fall in love!

Goes like this : decide on the headphone (sell the ones you didn't like on Head-fi), build a Soha II amp for $200, buy the best most expensive DAC you can afford. Then start saving for a high end amp. Then maybe buy your fav companies flagship headphones.


.



Even multi-taskers want good sound ;P. I don't need to close my eyes to reach that state of zen, even if once in a while my imagination will get the best of me. I mean I understand the "isolationist" that just enjoys the music for what it is, but not everyone is that sensitive. Though I think your being somewhat elitist, your advice I feel is sound for everyone.

I would never go cheap again
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while at the same time I probably won't invest in a $2000+ system only the most sensitive and "isolationist" as you say would get the best out of. That is unless they are just that much better for me.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 2:41 PM Post #358 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjikiran /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Even multi-taskers want good sound ;P. I don't need to close my eyes to reach that state of zen, even if once in a while my imagination will get the best of me.

I would never go cheap again
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I know, I was being facicious, I hate you multitaskers at my job make me look bad. I can only do one thing at a time correctly.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 2:41 PM Post #359 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
When I first got into headphones I made the same mistake as the OP. Let me tell you new folks. Spend your money to DECIDE what headphones you like best. Drive them with your soundcard. Buy a pair of HD600's, K701's, Grado 225's, etc. Decide which flavor you percieve to be to your liking. Then build your amp and DAC to match the headphones.


That was also the path I took(in my case I used a cheap amp+ipod setup) then bought as many used headphones as I could to determine what kind of sound I would like. That certainly led me to the right direction.

However, in the past year, going to meets or listening to my friends' setup, I found new love on headphones that I thought I didn't like. I simply hated HD600 out of ipod, but after listening to my friends' HD600 setup, it is simply my favorite now. Same thing with K501, K701 (which is bland out of Ipod). So from my experience, in many cases, a good synergistic setup(doesn't have to be expensive) can turn headphones that you think you don't like into something quite different.
 
Jan 7, 2010 at 2:43 PM Post #360 of 505
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I know, I was being facicious, I hate you multitaskers at my job make me look bad. I can only do one thing at a time correctly.


Haha, thats alright I suck at multi tasking in real life. Unless I am writing code, my skills at multi tasking are extremely limited. As I re-edited my topic, that is still sound advice
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Kind of figured out you were kidding by the tone, it was too serious to be real. I kid as well by saying leetist
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.

Isolationist get the most out of their investment so that is pain enough for us "multi-taskers"
 

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