[regal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glac1er /img/forum/go_quote.gif That was also the path I took(in my case I used a cheap amp+ipod setup) then bought as many used headphones as I could to determine what kind of sound I would like. That certainly led me to the right direction. However, in the past year, going to meets or listening to my friends' setup, I found new love on headphones that I thought I didn't like. I simply hated HD600 out of ipod, but after listening to my friends' HD600 setup, it is simply my favorite now. Same thing with K501, K701 (which is bland out of Ipod). So from my experience, in many cases, a good synergistic setup(doesn't have to be expensive) can turn headphones that you think you don't like into something quite different.

I knew someone would mention this, but I just never found the Senn sound signature to change much no matter what amp is used. You can get a good feel for the sound sig you want to pursue out of a soundcard IMO. Meets are great if you live near a big city, but most of us don't.

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Goes like this : decide on the headphone (sell the ones you didn't like on Head-fi), build a Soha II amp for $200, buy the best most expensive DAC you can afford. Then start saving for a high end amp. Then maybe buy your fav companies flagship headphones. .

Or build a Starving Student for less than $100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is always one you prefer, keep that one. Others just add to the confusion

I wish it was that easy. I listen to 3-5 different headphones every day if you count in ears. I take at least 2 in ears and one full sized headphone with me when I travel. I will admit I should sell most of my headphones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabeer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I totally agree with Smeggy. Also, the Wharfedale really does need v.powerful amplification unlike most others. It's an unfair can to pull up, you could basically think of it as speaker drivers.

I was unsuccessfully trying to be funny. I should have used an emoticon

I'm in the camp of using the least amplification that you need. I use the headphone amp in my EMU 0404 USB as much as anything, even with some of my orthos.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Got to be the most irrespossible post I've seen in a while. Typical CDs have a dynamic rang of 30db, So if you are listening to peaks of 120 db, you are subjecting your hearing to 90b+ for hours at a time. Can you say hearing loss? Do I need to speak louder for you to hear ?

Regal, you know better than that.

How many times do I have to type "PEAK" for a Chemical Engineer to understand it? Do you ever listen to an orchestra concert? Do you think those peaks are sustained? There's a huge difference between that and sustained levels. Nevertheless, the "fight" is to produce those peaks without clipping. 30dB was a just an example range. We look for something around 90 or more, to be honest. Surely there was something else you could pick out of that post to criticize.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regal, you know better than that. How many times do I have to type "PEAK" for a Chemical Engineer to understand it? Do you ever listen to an orchestra concert? Do you think those peaks are sustained? There's a huge difference between that and sustained levels. Nevertheless, the "fight" is to produce those peaks without clipping. 30dB was a just an example range. We look for something around 90 or more, to be honest. Surely there was something else you could pick out of that post to criticize.

I thought your post was very informative and I can tell you that you didn't waste your time typing it all. It's much appreciated. I do appreciate the level of fidelity very good amping can confer on a recording with a wide dynamic range. It's really quite something. I just didn't appreciate the physics behind it.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought your post was very informative and I can tell you that you didn't waste your time typing it all. It's much appreciated. I do appreciate the level of fidelity very good amping can confer on a recording with a wide dynamic range. It's really quite something. I just didn't appreciate the physics behind it.

Thanks. I probably went too far trying to prove a point that some of us have been saying. There are real physical limitations with what can be done with a sound card, portable players, and such. Can it provide a sense of the signal signature of a pair of headphones? Yes, but there may be entire portions of the music that are not even heard. If you are lucky enough to have several headphone amplifiers at home - especially if there's a wide range of performance/cost in those amplifiers - you can do a simple test. Listen from one amp to another - or compare to a sound card. There are simply some frequencies and portions of the music that you will hear from one that you can't hear with another.

Headphones are similar - you can hear portions of the music in one that you can't hear in another. But if you purchase a high-end headphone and don't amplify it properly, you still won't hear the music you're missing. On the other hand, you may not know you're missing it, either - which is what I think this thread has been about.

 

[Kabeer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was unsuccessfully trying to be funny. I should have used an emoticon I'm in the camp of using the least amplification that you need. I use the headphone amp in my EMU 0404 USB as much as anything, even with some of my orthos.

Ahh the perils of internet communication

.
I actually listen to the YH-1000 out of my....laptop hp jack at times

.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Headphones are similar - you can hear portions of the music in one that you can't hear in another. But if you purchase a high-end headphone and don't amplify it properly, you still won't hear the music you're missing. On the other hand, you may not know you're missing it, either - which is what I think this thread has been about.

How true. Take the D5000 bass and extension when compared to the HD650. There are some CD's where some of the bass resolution and detail was completely lost on the HD650. The HD650 gave the bass, but not the detail. The interesting part is that I was very happy with the HD650, assuming that there was nothing else to hear.

The Ed 8's have the same ability to resolve bass unlike I've ever encountered in other cans I've owned.

Good power and fidelity makes detail jump out at you rather than your having to listen intently for it and likely even missing it completely. Good power and fidelity improves the attack and energy of the response. I've seen this evolve up the line of amps I've used. Power supply all the way... gimme power.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....... However, if we want to utilize near full capability of the headphone, we need 64mW at 115dB! Using the equations again, that results in +or- 4.38V, or a total swing of 8.76V! This is physically impossible for a sound card to provide! (A CMoy can easily manage it if using 2 x 9V batteries, though.) An amplifier must be able to supply this voltage, even for split-second, transient peaks or clipping/distortion and accompanying degradation in sound quality will occur. ..........

That was a very interesting post. Can I ask a question about the above? What part of an amps/soundcard specification tells you what its voltage swing is, as this seems to be a major indicator of how well it will drive various headphones?

Thanks

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif That was a very interesting post. Can I ask a question about the above? What part of an amps/soundcard specification tells you what its voltage swing is, as this seems to be a major indicator of how well it will drive various headphones? Thanks

Just look at the specs, e.g. mini3 (~$60):
Maximum output voltage
per channel, 1KHz, prior to onset of clipping
9Vp-p (3.2Vrms) with battery power
11Vp-p (3.9Vrms) with external power

 

[xnor]

tomb, do you know how much the HD650 drivers distort at 116dB? Because I think that the weakest part still is the driver..

 

[specto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Or build a Starving Student for less than $100.

I would attempt this, except I have failed at basically every DIY item I have made so far. Sad because I really want this.

 

[regal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regal, you know better than that. How many times do I have to type "PEAK" for a Chemical Engineer to understand it? Do you ever listen to an orchestra concert? Do you think those peaks are sustained? There's a huge difference between that and sustained levels. Nevertheless, the "fight" is to produce those peaks without clipping. 30dB was a just an example range. We look for something around 90 or more, to be honest. Surely there was something else you could pick out of that post to criticize.

Peak or not 120 dB out of a headphone is down right irresponsible, I guarantee you wont find many if any CDs with more than 30dB dynamic range which makes it sound like you are advocating 90 to 100 dB listening Your hearing is not something to jack with and I totally disagree with public posts advocating permanent hearing loss scenarios.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just look at the specs, e.g. mini3 (~$60): Maximum output voltage per channel, 1KHz, prior to onset of clipping 9Vp-p (3.2Vrms) with battery power 11Vp-p (3.9Vrms) with external power

Thanks, unfortunately, MF dont quote anything for the V8P amp.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Peak or not 120 dB out of a headphone is down right irresponsible, I guarantee you wont find many if any CDs with more than 30dB dynamic range which makes it sound like you are advocating 90 to 100 dB listening Your hearing is not something to jack with and I totally disagree with public posts advocating permanent hearing loss scenarios.

Hyperbole doesn't help your responses, but you have a history of that. I just thought you had moved beyond that to some level of mutual respect, but evidently that was wrong. It's one of the easiest things in the world to pounce on someone when you think they're advocating something unsafe. Shout to the rooftops from some knee-jerk level of workplace standards meant for an 8hrs a day, 40 hrs a week environment.

Nothing was further from the truth. It was intended to demonstrate the levels of amplification required if someone is truly wishing to emulate a live listening experience with a top-tier headphone, and to demonstrate that a simple soundcard cannot begin to reproduce the detail and transients that such a headphone can reproduce.

One of the fundamentals of matching speakers to amplifiers is to match their power handling capability. You think that's unsafe because it implies that everyone is going to listen at 90-120db 8hrs a day, 5 days a week? Of course not - I wouldn't assume that of you, but you do of me.

In either case, you can't do it with a soundcard and the soundcard won't do it for headphones, either.

EDIT: "I guarantee you wont find many if any CDs with more than 30dB dynamic range " - why take that as a gospel fact, simply because I mentioned an observation? There's a lot lower music levels in most CD's. I was referring to an observed average in peak passages simply looking at the VU options on Foobar - not very scientific.

 

[evilking]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Note that the typical power supply for a PC is only 5V, assuming no losses. Every opamp needs a base-loaded voltage, so the sound card will probably need at least 1 or 2 volts more than the 4.38V, so the sound card's ability is already impacted. However, if we want to utilize near full capability of the headphone, we need 64mW at 115dB! Using the equations again, that results in +or- 4.38V, or a total swing of 8.76V! This is physically impossible for a sound card to provide!

Absolute ignorance!

Since when have PCIe cards run on 5 volts? Go look it up. Somehow the STX runs on 12 volts, maybe it's magic!

And those calculations give RMS voltage not peak! So the 4.38volts required for 115dB (lets pretend we have actual tin ears to withstand this volume) is actually 6.194v peak, which is definitely achievable with a modern soundcard running on 12v.


EK