To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...

[castleofargh]

You would recommend this VST (xfeed) over the Case Meier version?

it was my go to VST because it would let me have options others didn't have, or had but named or applied differently and I didn't always understand what they were doing. with my big weird head, I need more customization than the average guy who might be super happy with default crossfeed settings for the average human(I always suspected the horns to mess my HRTF).
anyway I happened to both understand and find some pleasing setting with Xnor's crossfeed. but 112dB is very nice too, the main flaw I found was that it's not free ^_^. but I used the trial period till the end, and I suggest you do too. for us amateur dudes, there is also the good old TB Isone suite(that you can also try for free if they didn't change that). it's perhaps one of the easiest approach because it has a lot of stuff packed together. and plenty of knobs to play with. nothing revolutionary IMO, and we can certainly just use various VSTs to get to the same sort of results or even more custom ones. but Isone is, again IMO, user friendly.

in the end it's really just a matter of how well something works for your own head/taste. the best stuff for me might feel like crap for you. my criteria are usually to be able to set things to feel like the side sounds come from my speakers instead of other angles. and also to have a center image that isn't too screwed up. which isn't always as easy as it might seem. for that @ironmine's comment is on point. some old stuff had what I imagine to be massive comb effect(somehow I never bothered to measure the output to check). some stuff like the "studio" surround setting on sony walkmans started with a totally crippled center image. it was a massacre. and in the recent years, they have improved on that a little and now it's pretty nice(to me). but it's a bit more than just xfeed. in the end how they technically deal with the center image is only relevant in how right it feels to you.

Oh my why is everyone so hostile and mean-spirited lately on Sound Science?

winter is coming, we all get depressed and grumpy. the science people talk about having less light, the change in temperature and stuff like that. but I totally blame Xmas songs coming way too soon. I can handle them for a family weekend, but I cannot live with that crap for 2 months!!!!! if there is a war on Xmas like I see on US tv, then how come I'm not protected by the Geneva convention as prisoner of war?
we're having real problems here!

 

[bigshot]

I'm getting more and more jolly as time goes by! I see the "regular suspects" tossing hand grenades into the discussions and I just laugh at them. Then I laugh at the inevitable sputtering outrage it causes. If you look at it all as a slapstick comedy, it's a lot of fun. Just imagine posters as the Marx Brothers and Margaret Dumont.

Don't point that beard at me! It might be loaded!

 

[71 dB]

What I feel after weeks of debating here is what am I doing here? Am I contributing in any way? Can I help someone? All I manage to do is make other people feel bad. I feel bad myself too. Everything feels so pointless. I'm not going to change my mind about crossfeed at this point and either will anyone else here I believe, so what the *** are we doing? Why don't we spend the time we waste here on people important to us, people who are part of our life? Keep debating people if you want, but I have had enough of this. Use crossfeed or don't, it's your choice. I have made my choice and you know what it is...

 

[bigshot]

Some advice...

Don't grab on so hard.
Don't get even more argumentative when people get argumentative with you. That just escalates things.
Sort out the wheat from the chaff. I identify the people you can learn from and discuss things with them.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking the spotlight is on you and you're here just to present information. It should be a give and take.
If someone is behaving like the hind end of a donkey, you should only have to tell them that once. If you keep interfacing with the wrong end of the animal, you know what you'll end up covered with.
Being simple and direct is a virtue. If you find yourself obfuscating or blathering just to make a point, cut it all back and try to say it clearly in three sentences or less.
Every day is a new fresh day to find something interesting to read about and share.

 

[jgazal]

with my big weird head, I need more customization than the average guy who might be super happy with default crossfeed settings for the average human(I always suspected the horns to mess my HRTF).

I bet is no bigger than Neumann KU!

winter is coming, we all get depressed and grumpy. the science people talk about having less light, the change in temperature and stuff like that. but I totally blame Xmas songs coming way too soon. I can handle them for a family weekend, but I cannot live with that crap for 2 months!!!!! if there is a war on Xmas like I see on US tv, then how come I'm not protected by the Geneva convention as prisoner of war?
we're having real problems here!

You should pin this post! Best post of 2017!!

 

[ironmine]

Upsampling does NOT increase precision, how can there be higher precision from processing frequencies which do not exist! Why isn't that obvious to you?

Although more technically more accurate, it almost certainly wouldn't be audibly better than outputting at 44/16. Again, how can processing 16 bits + 8 additional zeros be higher precision than processing 16 bits + no additional zeros, when both are calculated at 64bit float precision?

Processing in a higher sample/bit rate format helps to minimize aliasing, quantization noise, rounding-off errors, phase misalignment issues, etc.
The more data points an algorithm has to work with, the more precise and accurate the result of calculation will be.

That's why high-quality plugins offer oversampling options to increase the accuracy of processing. And that's why DAW process signals at higher sample and bit rates. They need more resolution to achieve their best.

Processing audio means running thousands of mathematical calculations. Where the results of one calculation depend on the results of a previous calculation.

A higher sample/bit rate is like having a calculator with more figures after the decimal point. The more figures there are after the decimal point, the less the rounding off error is. And if there are thousands of math calculations to do, these rounding off errors add to each other, resulting in a less precise result.

Consider this:
If a calculator (A) has only two figures after the decimal point, it cannot multiply 1.25343 x 1.54789 as precisely as a calculator (B) with four figures after the decimal point:

Reality: 1.25343 x 1.54789 = 1.9401717627

Calculator A: 1.25 x 1.55 = 1.94 (the rounding-off error is 1.9401717627 - 1.94 = 0.0001717627)
Calculator B: 1.2534 x 1.5479 = 1,9401 ((the rounding-off error is 1.9401717627 - 1.9401 = 0,0000717627.

The rounding-off error of calculator A is 2.5 times more than the rounding-off error of calculator B.
The more math operations we do, the more we deviate from the precise result, because rounding-off errors multiply.

Now imagine doing thousands of such operations in one plugin, then passing the result to another plugin which runs thousands of other math calculations.
How about a chain of 5-6 plugins?

That's why I prefer to upsample the signal to as high format as my DAC would accept. (44/16 > 176/24).
Or you can do this (if your PC is powerful enough and if your plugins can work in such high resolution): upsample 44/16 to 352/32. Process in 352/32 and then downsample to 176/24 before outputting to your DAC.

 

[castleofargh]

I bet is no bigger than Neumann KU!

the only reference I know for head size is from hats. I get my hats in euro size 62cm(don't how much that is in finger units). and it's not the hair taking space for I shave the little I have left. so in that aspect I'm closer to a dummy head than most ^_^.

 

[ironmine]

Why would you advise me to read a book I've already read and discussed with the author?

I suggest YOU read Bob Katz' book "Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science"!!!

I've read 2 times and periodically come back to it.

And you either did not read it, or read it but you don't agree with the author or you cannot even understand what you have read and how to apply it.

Some people are like that: they read, then they boast that they've read it or even "discussed it with the author", but in reality they did not understand it, do the opposite and continue spreading the false information and harmful advise.

Please refer to Chapter 4 "Worldlengths and differ" (page 49).
Also, Chapter 18 "High Sample Rates" (page 221).

 

[castleofargh]

more talking about audio and less about what you think of the other forum member please. I'm asking all of you to try and make some effort on this. it brings nothing to the table but a crappy atmosphere. if the only argument against a claim is "you suck so I'm right", we're in serious trouble.


the way I see it, if a VST does something significantly better with oversampled signal, it will oversample the signal itself anyway and pick whatever rate works best for the job. if it doesn't, and bothers to do whatever it is that it does at all sample rates instead, maybe the guy considered the difference to be irrelevant? or maybe he actually thought it worked better that way than to resample before and resample after? when something is really better, I'd expect the documentation of a specific plugin to make mention of it.
as for fidelity, when applying various plugins set by ear, I feel like it might become more of a philosophical concept than a reference to actual objective fidelity. but as we have gone way beyond the simple crossfeed on a consumer playback, I'm not sure we can really count on a "one fit all" better choice.

 

[ironmine]

more talking about audio and less about what you think of the other forum member please. I'm asking all of you to try and make some effort on this. it brings nothing to the table but a ****ty atmosphere. if the only argument against a claim is "you suck so I'm right", we're in serious trouble.


the way I see it, if a VST does something significantly better with oversampled signal, it will oversample the signal itself anyway and pick whatever rate works best for the job. if it doesn't, and bothers to do whatever it is that it does at all sample rates instead, maybe the guy considered the difference to be irrelevant? or maybe he actually thought it worked better that way than to resample before and resample after? when something is really better, I'd expect the documentation of a specific plugin to make mention of it.
as for fidelity, when applying various plugins set by ear, I feel like it might become more of a philosophical concept than a reference to actual objective fidelity. but as we have gone way beyond the simple crossfeed on a consumer playback, I'm not sure we can really count on a "one fit all" better choice.

No, a VST does not usually oversample itself, because oversampling increases a computational load upon a processor significantly, and the maker of a VST does not know how powerful your computer is. Oversampling is usually optional, the user has to choose 2X, 4X, 8X or 16X oversampling.

Check, for example, Voxengo plugins (http://www.voxengo.com/product/harmonieq/features/)
One of the features: "Up to 8x oversampling".

Another example: http://wavearts.com/products/plugins/ts2/
Waves Tube Saturator. It has a toggle switch "2X oversampling" and a remark: "Also there is a 2x oversampling mode using a very high quality resampler algorithm. Use 2x mode to attenuate aliased distortion harmonics."

And this is typical. You are offered to open a little drop-down menu and choose which oversampling your computer is fast enough to handle.

 

[ironmine]

Those who want to make their crossfeed to sound more live and less anechoic, try adding a reverb before a crossfeed plugin:

This is 122 dB Redline Reverb, I chose Studio Liver Room preset, but I reduced the Wet/Dry mix to 15% and set the decay reverb time (RT60) to 0.35 sec.

 

[bigshot]

more talking about audio and less about what you think of the other forum member please.

I should have made it clear that I was speaking about internet forums in general, not specific people. There should be an instruction manual with internet forums, but there isn't. Some folks expect it to work the way they want it to work and they get upset when it doesn't. Understanding the dynamic requires being honest about your intentions for participating and how you plan to interact with others. That's something that takes thought. It doesn't just happen.

 

[gregorio]

[1] I don't care about errors I can't hear/notice, and even if I did, I'd have to compare pros and cons. [2] The pros of crossfeed are massive. The cons are theoretical.

1. So now you're agreeing with what I posted several pages back, yes, we have to compare the pro and cons for ourselves!
2. This is the sort of statement I object to! Just because you personally can't hear the cons does not make them "theoretical", you've just completely made that up, based solely on your own personal inability to hear them! If I were an old man and couldn't hear anything beyond 8kHz does that mean all frequencies above 8kHz are only "theoretical" or that they are real but I simply can't "recognise" them? Again, going round in circles back to where I started with you: I do hear the "cons", crossfed HPs do not sound perfect to me, un-crossfed HPs are also not perfect, even HRTF compensated HPs are also often imperfect, as is binaural and so is playback on speakers in a consumer environment. There is no perfect consumer playback!

G

 

[bigshot]

speakers > headphones > binaural For some music, cross feed can be an improvement I would imagine. For others, no. It depends.

 

[71 dB]

Those who want to make their crossfeed to sound more live and less anechoic, try adding a reverb before a crossfeed plugin:

When making music I "render" the raw tracks and often fist crossfeed and then add reverberation. The "direct sound" is strongly crossfed while reverberation contains greater ILD. Summing these together ensures, that the ILD levels stay low enough. Works nicely imo.