To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...

Dec 8, 2017 at 6:43 PM Post #376 of 2,192
No, not more "pleasant". More precise because room acoustics is not convoluted into the music.

I studied design in college and one of the things they taught me was to be true to your materials. Don't use wood grain formica or force a square peg in a round hole. Use your tools to their strengths. Trying to make headphones more like speakers is like that. If you are going to use headphones, think about what it is that headphones do better than speakers and play to that. If you want a sound that is more like speakers, use speakers. The same is true in reverse. A room without any acoustic character might sound closer to headphones, but as speakers, it would sound pretty lousy.

Room acoustics are supposed to be convoluted into the music. It's designed for that. The purpose of room treatment isn't to remove all reflections. It's to remove the problematic ones. You need to have a certain amount of space for the sound to inhabit. That's a big part of what makes speakers sound better than headphones.
 
Dec 8, 2017 at 7:03 PM Post #377 of 2,192
If you are going to use headphones, think about what it is that headphones do better than speakers and play to that.
I can listen to headphones at loud level in the middle of the night without disturbing anyone.
 
Dec 8, 2017 at 9:07 PM Post #378 of 2,192
1. No, that's not how processing works! You will NOT get either higher precision or less quality loss. Precision is dictated by the plugin's internal bit depth which is either 32 or 64 bit float. So whether you feed a plugin with 16 bits of data or 16 bits plus 8 additional zeros, the precision and result are identical. Increasing the sample rate is likewise pointless, there's no data above the Nyquist point to process and you don't magically get from upsampling. The only time a higher sampling rate could make a difference is in the case of some non-linear processes, in which case any decent plugin will internally upsample anyway. Actually, upsampling could (theoretically) make matters worse, some plugins operate at a single internal sample rate. Say for example a plugin operates at 96kHz, you upsample to say 176kHz, the plugin down samples to 96, performs it's algorithm and when complete upsamples the result back to 176kHz again, to match the incoming sample rate. What have you gained by upsampling in the first place? You'd have been better if you'd left it at 44.1kHz! You've fallen into the old audiophile trap of confusing the bit depth of the audio file with the bit depth of the processing environment! The bit depth (and precision) has nothing to do with the bit depth of the file but the bit depth of the internal processing of the plugins and the bit depth of the data connections between those plugins.

2. Dither should be the last step here, not the first! If you are changing the volume in your processing environment, which is presumably a 32 or 64bit environment, then the result of that volume change is obviously a 32 or 64bit word length, which you are then truncating to 16 or 24bit because you applied dither before the volume change. However, if you're outputting 24bit to your DAC there is no point in dithering, as truncation artefacts would be way below audibility, even at 16bit truncation artefacts would probably be inaudible.

G

Gregorio, I advise you to read Bob Katz' book "Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science".

Modern high-quality VST plugins do not operate at fixed internal sample rates. At least, I never heard about them (and I read the manuals for all the plugins which I use). But I do have a number of the state-of-the-art plugins which, as an option, perform internal oversampling to achieve a higher precision.

1. Variant A = Taking the signal from 44/16 to 176/24, processing it with plugins and outputting the result to the DAC in 176/24.
2. Variant B = Leaving the signal in 44/16 format, processing it with plugins and outputting the result to the DAC in 44/16.

A will give a better, more accurate result than B.

2. No, dithering must not be the last step. Dithering can also cause digital clipping in certain cases. The last step must be the signal level & peak detection monitor. But you are right that volume adjustment must happen before dithering, not after. My mistake. So, the correct ending sequence in the processing chain must be as follows:

Signal level adjustment
Dithering
Signal level monitoring

The exact type of dithering (TPDF or noise-shaping) depends on whether the signal is to undergo any further processing. If there is further processing, choose TPDF. If not, choose noise-shaping. But, frankly speaking, dithering more important for signals in 16-bit format. If the signal goes out to a DAC in 24-bit format, dithering can be neglected. As for me, I still apply it, even to 24-bit signals.
 
Dec 8, 2017 at 9:17 PM Post #379 of 2,192
You do realize the same kind of thing happens with speakers?
Of course, but the material is mixed on speakers, that's the target.
Our spatial hearing isn't idiotic. It knows how to "get the picture" as long as the cues make sense. To me crossfeed produces very pinpoint accurate positions and that's not a mystery, because crossfed sound contains spatial information scaled to make sense. I believe the gradual transition helps hearing here. Without crossfeed the image is broken.
I could easily make the same argument in reverse: the image with cross-feed without ITD is broken.
Sorry, but some of our comments of crossfeed make it hard to believe you have been playing with it for decades. You sound like you heard about crossfeed 2 weeks ago for the first time in your life.
Again...I could make the same remark in reverse. I'm afraid you'll either have to accept my history with it or reject it. I really don't care. It doesn't change my opinions, and it certainly won't change yours.
 
Dec 8, 2017 at 9:23 PM Post #380 of 2,192
With speakers it does serve purpose because acoustic crossfeed makes sure the ITDs at our ears are scaled to "allowed" levels. With headphones without crossfeed things go horribly wrong. ITDs of even 5 ms make no sense at all. Maybe elephants would consider such ITD ok. I am not a fan of Decca Tree and I consider it overrated.
Ok, but every classical music engineer will disagree with you.

If the intent was to have that bass line close to my left ear then I think the producer is an idiot. Who in their right mind would have such intents?
So, no room in your world for free artistic expression? It's just "wrong"?
I am going to assume that the intent was something else and that's what I get when I listen to the track with speakers. It propably still sounds crappy (ping pongy), but at least excessive ILD is avoided. If excessive ILD is really intented for some sadistic reason then listening with speakers is wrong! Stop listening to speakers, because you might miss excessive ILD intented by lunatic producers! No, I am going to listen to speakers or headphones with crossfeed (unless of course the recording is spatial distortion free) because that makes the most sense to me and what's most important provides the most enjoyable sound to me! Kind of a no-brainer.
Lets see: we have the "producer is an idiot", and not in their right mind. We have "listening to speakers is wrong". We have "lunatic producers"...it never ends. I guess it's just you against the world, man.

So sad.
 
Dec 8, 2017 at 9:29 PM Post #382 of 2,192
Modern high-quality VST plugins do not operate at fixed internal sample rates. At least, I never heard about them (and I read the manuals for all the plugins which I use). But I do have a number of the state-of-the-art plugins which, as an option, perform internal oversampling to achieve a higher precision.

1. Variant A = Taking the signal from 44/16 to 176/24, processing it with plugins and outputting the result to the DAC in 176/24.
2. Variant B = Leaving the signal in 44/16 format, processing it with plugins and outputting the result to the DAC in 44/16.

A will give a better, more accurate result than B.
Resampling to a different rate doesn't improve anything. Adding a few bits at the bottom might. Really, your point here is wrong.
2. No, dithering must not be the last step. Dithering can also cause digital clipping in certain cases. The last step must be the signal level & peak detection monitor. But you are right that volume adjustment must happen before dithering, not after. My mistake. So, the correct ending sequence in the processing chain must be as follows:

Signal level adjustment
Dithering
Signal level monitoring
Looks like dithering is still the last step, as level monitoring isn't a process that changes anything.
The exact type of dithering (TPDF or noise-shaping) depends on whether the signal is to undergo any further processing. If there is further processing, choose TPDF. If not, choose noise-shaping. But, frankly speaking, dithering more important for signals in 16-bit format. If the signal goes out to a DAC in 24-bit format, dithering can be neglected. As for me, I still apply it, even to 24-bit signals.
Why? What DAC do you use that has the full 144dB dr?
 
Dec 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM Post #383 of 2,192
Dec 9, 2017 at 12:04 AM Post #384 of 2,192
TAL seems like a decent quality plugin, but I found that it created too much distortion for my taste. It's going for a classic over-driven guitar tube amp distortion. For a subtle yet sweet saturation effect, similar to the distortion you'd find in an audiophile tube amp, my favorite is still VORslickEQ (available here from Tokyo Dawn - I recommend DLing the version w/ no installer).

I do not use replay gain or limiters. I suppose a lot of this is very subjective, but I like to hear mastering decisions or even mistakes if they are there. If the album is loud, or soft, or even clipped, I like experiencing those things. I avoid DSP clipping by keeping EQ overall gain at "auto" when available, or manually set negative gain in situations where I boosted frequencies. I'm pretty careful not to go over the level I started at. If a song shows up with its own level problems or clipping though, I don't do anything to hide it.
Apologies totally going off subject so I moved my post to the more pertinent Sound Science Foobar2k Plug-In Thread.
 
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Dec 9, 2017 at 12:34 AM Post #385 of 2,192
Yes, I would have to agree that there is sometimes some unwanted distortion on certain tracks... I will give TDR VOS SlickEQ a try. This is a VST plugin that cna be used from within Foobar2k correct?

EDIT: Nevermind, I had missed the Windows (no installer VST option) :)

Which mode have you been using? Soviet?

I will try TDR VOS SlickEQ also! I like testing these "digital toys".

Let's see how it compares to what I consider currently the best tube amplifier emulation plugins:

TubeSaturator-580x236.jpg

Waves Tube Saturator v.1 (Tube Saturator Vintage)

TubeSaturator2-580x181.jpg

Waves Tube Saturator v.2

TubeDriver_v_1_3.png

Nick Crow Labs Tube Driver

I also like the sound of this equalizer (fat and juicy), but I am not sure whether its trying to emulate any tubes:

arange_screenshot.png

Softube Trident A-Range

However, when I need an absolutely transparent, surgically precise EQ with no coloration, I use Fab Filter Pro-Q2.
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 1:07 AM Post #386 of 2,192
I will try TDR VOS SlickEQ also! I like testing these "digital toys".

Let's see how it compares to what I consider currently the best tube amplifier emulation plugins:

TubeSaturator-580x236.jpg

Waves Tube Saturator v.1 (Tube Saturator Vintage)

TubeSaturator2-580x181.jpg

Waves Tube Saturator v.2

TubeDriver_v_1_3.png

Nick Crow Labs Tube Driver

I also like the sound of this equalizer (fat and juicy), but I am not sure whether its trying to emulate any tubes:

arange_screenshot.png

Softube Trident A-Range

However, when I need an absolutely transparent, surgically precise EQ with no coloration, I use Fab Filter Pro-Q2.
Awesome; thank you for sharing. Really be interested on your thoughts on each. I think we should move this tube plugin conversation over to the Tub Plugin Thread here. I already moved my last post as well as I really have strayed from the crossfeed topic. cheers.
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 2:54 AM Post #387 of 2,192
This crossfeed - https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,90764.0.html
sounds so good. 112dB Redline Monitor finally has a decent rival.
"finally" ^_^. it was one of the first xfeed VST I used on foobar.



modo talk: please refrain from making personal attacks like you did. Katz book is a classic for sure. but you might want to also have a look at headfi's rules. not a best seller by any mean, but fairly relevant to being in the forum.
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 6:19 AM Post #388 of 2,192
Great! Now figure out how to talk about cross-feed without disturbing anyone.
Oh, I didn't realize I am among special snowflakes who get triggered by microaggressions and need their safe space without pro-crossfeed propadanda.

Let's try talking about cross-feed without disturbing anyone:

Hey guys, something must be wrong with my head because I don't always want to listen to the music with headphones as it was intented, but I mess-up with the intended excessive ILD and enjoy natural and fatique-free sound instead. That can't be the intend, now can it? Who'd produce music to sound natural and fatique-free? That's crazy, so something must be wrong with me. Should I see the doctor?

Is that better my friend, or are you still disturbed?
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 6:46 AM Post #390 of 2,192
1. Ok, but every classical music engineer will disagree with you.

2. So, no room in your world for free artistic expression? It's just "wrong"?

3. Lets see: we have the "producer is an idiot", and not in their right mind. We have "listening to speakers is wrong". We have "lunatic producers"...it never ends. I guess it's just you against the world, man.

So sad.
1. I don't think BIS has ever used Decca Tree and Jürg Jecklin definitely doesn't disagree with me.
2. If excessive ILD is the main point in musical artistic expression then maybe music isn't my cup of tea…
3. I don't consider produsers idiots, because I don't have delusions of them to mix for headphones. What could you do in 1970? You didn't have DAW's with amazing spatial plugins. You had amplitude panoration and you used it to get the kind of sound that appeared good with speakers at that time. Yes, listening to speakers is wrong if you want to hear the original excessive ILD. You need headphones without crossfeed for that. Listening to speakers involves acoustic crossfeed + room acoustics which is kind of ILD regulating at low frequencies: No matter what the recording is, mono, ping pong, anything, what comes to your ears has ILD of about 3 dB at low frequencies. With headphones mono gives 0 dB and ping pong gives maybe 50 dB (limited by the leaking of headphones).
 

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