To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...

Dec 6, 2017 at 3:58 AM Post #316 of 2,192
My calculations are based on HRTF-measurements. Measurements aren't opinions. It's not an opinion that someone is 6' tall, but a measured fact.
I'm not disputing HRTF in concept or the measurements involved. But you are only using a small part of HRTF and ignoring the rest.
My discovery of crossfeed was a result of suddenly realizing how headphone listening easily causes excessive spatial information and when I tried crossfeed I confirmed what the scientific knowledge of human hearing tells us. There are hard scientific facts behind my "opinions." I call it understanding rather than opinions. My claims may not be 100 % accurate and correct, but they are hopefully quite correct and in time it gets more refined.
You can call it whatever you like. It is just your opinion until you show the research.
How about other people? How many percent of population even know the basic principles of human hearing? Heck, most people don't even understand decibels! If you are used to crap you may think the crap is gold.
None of that relates you the question of the efficacy and general preference (or not) of cross-feed.
Assume ignorance and stupidity.
There's that arrogance again!
You can't ask people, because most of the them are clueless. They need to be educated.
Actually, good research would NOT educate them at all. You'd simply present two choices for each of several music selections, one cross-fed, one not, and allow as much time as you like to get a preference. It's actually better research if they are not educated.
It's sad that in our global capitalism wisdom isn't valued much. You are a valued customer as long as you have money and you blindly buy what you are brainwashed to buy. Making money selling Fidget Spinners is easier so that's what people are sold. I can only dream about a spatially cultured word where instead of Fidget Spinners all people used crossfeed to fully enjoy their music on headphones.
This line of reasoning is ridiculous. People are not forced to buy blindly. We live in a world where more consumers are better educated every day because of on-line shopping and customer reviews. If you marketed a cross-feeder and sold it on Amazon you'd get at least some statistics, though somewhat biased. You have none, and that has nothing whatever to do with global capitalism.
Asking research data to back up that people want/need crossfeed is like asking children whether or not math should be teached at school. I wonder how that would turn out...
That's funny. Math is provable, and the correct answer is always preferable. You have such an incredibly high opinion of your cross-feed! It's nothing like math. We all need at least some math every day, and some need a lot. There's boundless proof of that. Thus, math should be taught in school. Not very hard to understand. Cross-feed? I don't know if anyone other than you and a couple of others like it. I know I like it on an occasional recording, not on most. That alone casts some doubt on your "cross-feed everything all the time" rule.
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 7:41 AM Post #317 of 2,192
I'm not disputing HRTF in concept or the measurements involved. But you are only using a small part of HRTF and ignoring the rest.

I'm using the relevant part. Excessive stereo separation is an issue mostly below 1 kHz. At higher frequencies the shadow-effect of head becomes strong and the phase difference become pretty meaningless. So, the original "stereo space" information works more or less as it is. It's not the kind of major problem it is below 1 kHz.

You can call it whatever you like. It is just your opinion until you show the research.

What counts "research" to you? This is mental gymnastics that has taken years of thinking and calculating and testing/listening. Since this is my hobby, I haven't been most systematic, because that would take the fun out of it. What's the point of a hobby if you don't enjoy doing it? So, I don't have a neat well-written pdf to show you. All I have is messy calculations all over, messy xls-files of simulations and calculations, Audacity nyquist plugins for testing ideas and prosessing tracks of music I make, DIY crossfeeders, listening experiences etc. The only organised thing I have is the knowledge and understanding I have of the issue and that's what I am sharing here. If all of this is worthless to you because it doesn't count as "research" then I don't have anything to offer to you. Sorry.

Actually, good research would NOT educate them at all. You'd simply present two choices for each of several music selections, one cross-fed, one not, and allow as much time as you like to get a preference. It's actually better research if they are not educated.

Why educate people about the dangers of smoking? Let them smoke so researchers can monitor how fast they get lung cancer and die. The research has been done long ago. We know how spatial hearing works. It's time to apply the knowledge and educate people about spatial distortion.

This line of reasoning is ridiculous. People are not forced to buy blindly. We live in a world where more consumers are better educated every day because of on-line shopping and customer reviews. If you marketed a cross-feeder and sold it on Amazon you'd get at least some statistics, though somewhat biased. You have none, and that has nothing whatever to do with global capitalism.

We are not as free as you think we are. The fact that you prefer Who's Next album without crossfeed indicates you suffer from spatial deafness. You are propably blind to the problems of global capitalism too.

That's funny. Math is provable, and the correct answer is always preferable. You have such an incredibly high opinion of your cross-feed! It's nothing like math. We all need at least some math every day, and some need a lot. There's boundless proof of that. Thus, math should be taught in school. Not very hard to understand. Cross-feed? I don't know if anyone other than you and a couple of others like it. I know I like it on an occasional recording, not on most. That alone casts some doubt on your "cross-feed everything all the time" rule.

High opinion compared to no crossfeed. Crossfeed doesn't give you the best possible outcome imaginable, but for most recordings it means a clear improvement compared to not using it. DIY crossfeefers cost like 10-50 bucks to build depending on the level of sophistication and for that money you get so large improvement it's hard to imagine similar improvement elsewhere for the money in audio. Or you can use software crossfeeders for free or very little cost. Plus the use of crossfeed as a concept is supported by the scientific knowledge of spatial hearing. Even if every single recording from now on was produced for headphones (free of spatial distortion), 98 % of everything in stereo so far is plaqued with spatial distortion to some degree.

jasonb: "I must say that ever since first using it, I now have to use it. Music through headphones now without it just sounds strange to me."
revonlink24: "I do use crossfeed. It makes the music sound more natural to my ears, and I always strive for natural sound."
aimlink: "I currently always use the crossfeed option on my Head UltraDesktop Amp."
xnor: "I also use crossfeed, cmoy's implementation that is (though software based)."
p a t r i c k: "I have become a huge fan of cross-feed since I got my Meier-Audio StageDAC"
EddieE: "I voted yes, but it depends on the crossfeeed of course."
Uncle Erik: "Yes, I like Dr. Meier's crossfeed implementation quite well."
GreatDane: "I've used crossfeed with portable amps from Xin, Meier,HeadRoom & Practical Devices. I currently only have the XM5 and use it 50% with Westone 3. I did have a Corda Cross at one time. I regret selling that now."



 
Dec 6, 2017 at 8:36 AM Post #318 of 2,192
I agree with 71 dB. Once I found out the crossfeed technology (more than 10 years ago) and started using it, there is no way back.

That's nice to hear and a statement of someone who cares about natural enjoyable music more than how we have learned to listen to headphones. :wink:

I have tried many crossfeed plugins (basically, almost all of them out there, except two or three), both Foobar components and VST plugins, I have a bunch of presets for them and can invoke them for instant comparison. Meier, Isone, Redline Monitor. Before listening to an album critically, I try briefly saved presets to see which one sounds better with this particular album. I also try no crossfeed. The variant "no crossfeed" is never a winner. And never even the 2nd place. Actually, it's always the worst and the most horrible sounding.

Well, I do have some (maybe 2 %) recordings that do sound best as they are and I do listen to them without crossfeed, but almost always I want crossfeed and use it. I don't listen to music from computer much for many reasons so I don't use software crossfeeders (I have Vox player with the three crossfeeders).

The crossfeed technology is a major breakthrough in headphone listening. It's a revolution in headphone listening experience. But most audiophiles are Know Nothings, they are literally the most ignorant people on Earth when it comes to the understanding of how sound works. This is the good description of what a typical audiophile is: http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audiophile.htm

Yeah. I'm surprised about people who are serious about sound quality and have tried crossfeed for long but still are more or less against it and prefer no crossfeed. Why are these people unable to take the step crossfeed allows and enter the world of less or no spatial distortion? Reading your message is like reading my own writings and it makes me feel more relaxed after all the pressure under pinnahertz' spatial distortion fandom. So, thanks!

71 dB, which crossfeed do you use?

I mostly use two DIY headphone adapters with crossfeed connected to my AV-amp's B-speaker terminals. The other one is based on Linkwitz-Cmoy (yep, in my avatar), but has 6 different crossfeed levels from -10 dB to -1 dB. It also has the possibility to reduce channel separation at high frequencies and has "almost mono"/mono switch (surprisingly helpful).

The other one is a modification of Linkwitz-Cmoy with one fixed crossfeed level of -3 dB, but cut off frequency dropped to about 300 Hz so that the phase shift raises to about 640 µs creating a wide, but "flat" soundstage. This kind of "widefeeder" is good for those who think crossfeed makes the sound too narrow. Not this one! The idea is that it produces the widest possible sound for headphones without spatial distortion and kind of simulates a multichannel speaker system rather than a stereo speaker system. To compensate for the low cut off frequency the crossfeeder has (adjustable) "floor level" flat channel mixing at level -26 dB or -15 dB that gives enough crossfeed above 300 Hz.

I take turns between these DIY crossfeeders and the recording determines which one sounds better. Having a headphone adapter removes the need of a headphone amp. The 6 level model was more expensive to buid, about 50 bucks. The other one was maybe half of that. Also, it doesn't matter what my sound source is, computer, CD player, Blu-ray player, TV, radio, … I can use the same crossfeeders for all of them!

A picture and schematics of my 6 crossfeeder level DIY headphone adapter:

HeadphoneAdapter2.jpg
Headphone adapter 2.02.jpg
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 10:23 AM Post #319 of 2,192
Don't think about what effects are used in music. Our hearing doesn't detect reverb plugins. It detects ILD/ITD + spectral cues in time. Only care about what kind of ILD/ITD -information reaches your ears. Is it within "human hearing space" or not?

This is patently incorrect. If it were correct, reverb would be undetectable in mono (single speaker placed centrally), where there is effectively little or no ILD/ITD, which is clearly NOT the case. I'm not sure what you mean by "human hearing space" so I cannot respond to your question.

Our everyday sound world is more monophonic than people realise, closer to mono than ping pong stereo.

Again, no it is not. Our everyday world is NEVER monophonic, unless your "everyday world" is living in an anechoic chamber!

[1] What a crossfeeder does to sound is what our hearing expects sounds coming to our ear having. [2] That's why the "messing-up" is beneficial. That's why people don't say the stereo image with speakers is messed up because your left ear hears right speaker and vice versa. [2a] Spatial information in "stereo space" MUST BE messed with to map it into "human hearing space". [3] You can live your life without a crossfeeder, but that makes you spatially ignorant.

1. Again, NO it is not! Our hearing does not expect just the simple crossfeeding of the sound, it would only expect that if normal, everyday life were living in an anechoic chamber. An anechoic chamber is in fact so alien to what human hearing "expects" that the first time inside one can be a very strange experience for many people, as the brain cannot accept the reality of what it's hearing and can start to play all kinds of weird tricks to make sense of it, even to the point of causing severe nausea in some people. What the brain actually expects is not just crossfeed but acoustic reflections. This is where it gets complicated because we have reflections in the recording itself and reflections of those reflections from the listening environment.
2. That all depends on the messing-up! You appear to have a typical audiophile black and white approach, much the same as the "all distortion is bad" opinion. In fact, distortion is not "bad", much/most distortion is not only "good" but absolutely essential, it depends on the type of distortion, the amount and it's context! Same with "messing-up", it ALL depends on how it's messed-up! What we hear in say the left ear from the right speaker is not just the right speaker signal delayed by some small amount (you quoted 250um) to compensate for ITD, what we hear (and absolutely expect to hear!) in our left ear is the reflections off the left wall of the room from the right speaker output, which is a delay in the several milliseconds range, plus a freq colouration of those reflections (which is completely unrelated to any head transfer functions). Messing-up with listening room reflections is beneficial because the recording has been created in an environment with room reflections in the first place, the delays and reverbs chosen/programmed according to how they interact with those room reflections. "Messing-up" the recording playback using ONLY a 250um delayed crossfeed is an entirely different sort of messing-up! It's just as likely, if not MORE likely to be the opposite of beneficial. There CANNOT be a black or white answer to this because it ENTIRELY depends on what reverbs/delays have been employed in a mix and how they have been employed.
2a. True but, HOW that spatial information is messed-up is vital, not just any messing-up will do!

3. The argument can be made for exactly the opposite to your statement! Yes, in some cases crossfeeding might provide an improvement, particularly with early stereo mixes which often contained very rudimentary stereo information but you are stating that nearly all recordings benefit from crossfeed and the most likely, logical explanation for such a statement is that you are relatively insensitive to some of the spatial information on recordings and are therefore not bothered by the inappropriate "messing-up" which often occurs with crossfeeding. If this is the case, that would make you the one who is "spatially ignorant"!

I know your answer to the above, something along the lines of: "With no crossfeed you still haven't got any room interaction but at least with crossfeed you've got one of the elements the brain expects." True and in some cases that's enough for crossfeeding work reasonably well but in other cases it can do more harm than good. In some cases, taking away that room interaction does not have much of a detrimental effect on the spatial information, it all depends on the amount of reverb applied and the parameters of that reverb, such as diffusion, stereo spread, stereo width and the timing, positioning and relative balance of the early reflections, almost all reverb algorithms already contain a fair amount of crossfeed to start with, although it's user configurable! Secondly, almost all mix engineers will check their mix using headphones, depending on the target media. Obviously the mix doesn't work how we intend on HPs and while we can't do much as far as the left/right positioning of the dry source sound/instruments are concerned without compromising the reproduction on speakers, there are typically tweaks we can apply to the spatial information (reverbs, delays, compression, EQ, etc.) which may have little impact on the speaker reproduction but significantly improves the HP reproduction. Again, how much we can do depends on the mix in the first place, the types and amounts of spatial information employed and of course, the time/effort dedicated to making such adjustments, which can vary from almost none at all to a considerable amount. Obviously, anything above "none at all" and you're going to damage/destroy it with your crossfeeding!

It helps that crossfeeders simulate what happens in reality so the decoding is easy for our brain, much much easier than decoding the un-crossfed signals with excessive spatial information.

This is so typical of many audiophiles; take a perception/preference and either just invent some complete nonsense to explain why it's the truth/real or, take some actual facts but ignore other vital facts to arrive at a more plausible/factual explanation which due to the omitted facts is still nonsense! This quoted statement falls into the latter category. Crossfeeding does indeed "simulate what happens in reality", the reality it simulates is what would happen if we listened to a recording on a stereo speaker system in an anechoic chamber and typically, nothing is more unreal or difficult for "our brain to decode" than listening in an anechoic chamber. This is the complete opposite of your quoted statement!!! AGAIN, in practice it all depends on the recording, our personal sensitivity to all the various types of spatial information and our personal preferences. Some audiophiles for example prefer and actively seek out the most "excessive spatial information" they can find, regardless of the meaning of the word "fidelity".

I've no objection to your preference for crossfeed, what I object to is you taking what is simply your personal preference and trying to redefine it as objective fact which applies to everyone and that me and everyone else who does not share your preference is "spatially ignorant". In all likelihood, I'm far less spatially ignorant than you, because for the last 25 years creating and manipulating spatial information is a significant part of what I do for a living. Additionally, your objective facts are not objective, they're clearly subjective and last but not least, you're completely ignoring/omitting other, vital facts! You have a strongly held preference and have developed a fairly elaborate explanation to turn that preference into an absolute factual belief, so there's virtually no chance I'm going to have even the tiniest influence on your views. This post is mainly aimed at others, who might find some of what I've said interesting or thought provoking.

G
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 10:56 AM Post #320 of 2,192
Recently, I found a digital simulation of the Meier crossfeed for Foobar, and have been enjoying it.

http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_dsp_meiercf

I'm not much of a crossfeed fan, but this one is very good, subtle but effective when not overdone. I am listening to Jimi Hendrix experience now and it's making a big difference. I don't know if I could enjoy this album on headphones otherwise.

+1 I'm big into DSP right not. I loaded Foobar up with DSPs and am going to town on them. I've never felt so empowered to customize my listening experience. Some people do tube rolling, I do plugin rolling. And things have never sounded so good. That Jimi Hendrix album I mentioned above, I was using dynamic EQ for treble spikes, parametric EQ for tone adjustment, slickEQ for saturation/tube sound, and Meier crossfeed to stop the ping pong. lol. The neutrality folks would probably freak out hearing that, but man did it sound gooood. If I was using speakers, I'd go for stereo->5.1 DSP too. I'm not exactly sure what Jimi Hendrix intended, but I assume he wanted me to enjoy his music, and that I did.

I found a simulation of Meier "natural" crossfeed filter for foobar that sounds very good to me. That will work for Windows, not sure what to tell you about Android.

Good day sir. I too have recently fell into DSP/VST/Components rolling and having a blast!

What setting are you using on your Case's Meier Crossfeed component? I am staying around the 15 to 18 level with my Nhoord Audio Red v2s listening to predominately ambient electronic or ambient classical.

upload_2017-12-6_22-54-19.png


Currently I have my DSP chain as follows:

upload_2017-12-6_22-55-54.png
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM Post #321 of 2,192
This is patently incorrect. If it were correct, reverb would be undetectable in mono (single speaker placed centrally), where there is effectively little or no ILD/ITD, which is clearly NOT the case. I'm not sure what you mean by "human hearing space" so I cannot respond to your question.

Reverberation is more than ILD / ITD so maybe misunderstood each other.

Again, no it is not. Our everyday world is NEVER monophonic, unless your "everyday world" is living in an anechoic chamber!
I think I didn't mean monophonic, but closer to monophonic. Sorry for being unclear.

1. Again, NO it is not! Our hearing does not expect just the simple crossfeeding of the sound, it would only expect that if normal, everyday life were living in an anechoic chamber. An anechoic chamber is in fact so alien to what human hearing "expects" that the first time inside one can be a very strange experience for many people, as the brain cannot accept the reality of what it's hearing and can start to play all kinds of weird tricks to make sense of it, even to the point of causing severe nausea in some people. What the brain actually expects is not just crossfeed but acoustic reflections. This is where it gets complicated because we have reflections in the recording itself and reflections of those reflections from the listening environment.
2. That all depends on the messing-up! You appear to have a typical audiophile black and white approach, much the same as the "all distortion is bad" opinion. In fact, distortion is not "bad", much/most distortion is not only "good" but absolutely essential, it depends on the type of distortion, the amount and it's context! Same with "messing-up", it ALL depends on how it's messed-up! What we hear in say the left ear from the right speaker is not just the right speaker signal delayed by some small amount (you quoted 250um) to compensate for ITD, what we hear (and absolutely expect to hear!) in our left ear is the reflections off the left wall of the room from the right speaker output, which is a delay in the several milliseconds range, plus a freq colouration of those reflections (which is completely unrelated to any head transfer functions). Messing-up with listening room reflections is beneficial because the recording has been created in an environment with room reflections in the first place, the delays and reverbs chosen/programmed according to how they interact with those room reflections. "Messing-up" the recording playback using ONLY a 250um delayed crossfeed is an entirely different sort of messing-up! It's just as likely, if not MORE likely to be the opposite of beneficial. There CANNOT be a black or white answer to this because it ENTIRELY depends on what reverbs/delays have been employed in a mix and how they have been employed.
2a. True but, HOW that spatial information is messed-up is vital, not just any messing-up will do!

3. The argument can be made for exactly the opposite to your statement! Yes, in some cases crossfeeding might provide an improvement, particularly with early stereo mixes which often contained very rudimentary stereo information but you are stating that nearly all recordings benefit from crossfeed and the most likely, logical explanation for such a statement is that you are relatively insensitive to some of the spatial information on recordings and are therefore not bothered by the inappropriate "messing-up" which often occurs with crossfeeding. If this is the case, that would make you the one who is "spatially ignorant"!
1.

kaiuton huone.jpg
 
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Dec 6, 2017 at 2:28 PM Post #322 of 2,192
@71 dB, I'm quite surprised at such a personal attack and rather than respond in kind, I'll let a mod take care of it. It's a shame that your extremism apparently results in you not properly reading what I posted and just arguing, even against your own quotes! Pretty much all recordings have spacial distortion, the only exception would possibly be binaural recordings but they have their issues. Spacial distortion is not masking the mix, it's effectively a deliberate part of the mix, which you are then messing with! I also notice you completely ignored the fact that mixes are commonly somewhat modified for non-crossfeed HPs and therefore crossfeeding would be destroying those modifications and when a mix is not modified for headphones it's very possibly because the artists and engineers want it to sound that way or at least don't object to sounding the way it does in headphones. Additionally, depending on what I'm mixing, yes, I often listen to music without reverberation, or rather, I listen to it with only the "spacial distortion" of my studio, as do most mix engineers, what do you think we start with when we start mixing? You think maybe we receive a recording with perfect reverberation and we then spend hours adding "spatial distortion" to wreck it? And you call me delusional!

I'm in danger of going round in circles now, so I'll leave it there, except for one last point: You of course have absolutely no right whatsoever to object to my non-crossfeed preferences/attitude, this is not a fascist state with you as the dictator! I do not object to your preferences/attitude, except when that attitude attempts to dictate what my preference should be or attempts to state as objective fact what is clearly no more than a personal subjective opinion!

G
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM Post #323 of 2,192
@71 dB, I'm quite surprised at such a personal attack and rather than respond in kind, I'll let a mod take care of it. It's a shame that your extremism apparently results in you not properly reading what I posted and just arguing, even against your own quotes! Pretty much all recordings have spacial distortion, the only exception would possibly be binaural recordings but they have their issues. Spacial distortion is not masking the mix, it's effectively a deliberate part of the mix, which you are then messing with! I also notice you completely ignored the fact that mixes are commonly somewhat modified for non-crossfeed HPs and therefore crossfeeding would be destroying those modifications and when a mix is not modified for headphones it's very possibly because the artists and engineers want it to sound that way or at least don't object to sounding the way it does in headphones. Additionally, depending on what I'm mixing, yes, I often listen to music without reverberation, or rather, I listen to it with only the "spacial distortion" of my studio, as do most mix engineers, what do you think we start with when we start mixing? You think maybe we receive a recording with perfect reverberation and we then spend hours adding "spatial distortion" to wreck it? And you call me delusional!

I'm in danger of going round in circles now, so I'll leave it there, except for one last point: You of course have absolutely no right whatsoever to object to my non-crossfeed preferences/attitude, this is not a fascist state with you as the dictator! I do not object to your preferences/attitude, except when that attitude attempts to dictate what my preference should be or attempts to state as objective fact what is clearly no more than a personal subjective opinion!

G
I'm sorry it I make you feel attacked gregorio. Not my intent in any way. I have read great posts by you on this board and I believe we share the belief that 16/44.1 is all we need in consumer audio for example.

It's true that modern mixes are "modified" for non-crossfeed HPs, but I still feel some tiny spatial distortion in them and prefer to take care of it with weak crossfeed. Most recordings have spatial distortion, but perhaps less than 20 % of them have very strong spatial distortion. For a lot of recording it is mild and perhaps I haven't brought that up enough.

I feel so tired and sick today and I don't know if I have made any sense here. I try, try and try and it never works. Why did I born? What is my place? Where do I belong to? So confused of life. Crossfeed gives some sense of control and purpose. That's why it hurts me so much when my beliefs are challenged.
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 3:19 PM Post #324 of 2,192
Dec 6, 2017 at 5:09 PM Post #325 of 2,192
@71 dB how about you change the end of your previous post https://www.head-fi.org/threads/to-...-is-the-question.518925/page-22#post-13897143 ,and @gregorio agrees to go easy on you about who's got the longest and stiffest spatial awareness from now on?

I did modify and sensor my post so that it should be much less offensive. Sorry again. I'm a loser. I shouldn't be so sensitive to post that start "No! Wrong." I should believe in myself and respond in a calm and respectful manner. People don't need to go easy me. I need to be ready for the challenge.
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 6:13 PM Post #326 of 2,192
Good day sir. I too have recently fell into DSP/VST/Components rolling and having a blast!

What setting are you using on your Case's Meier Crossfeed component? I am staying around the 15 to 18 level with my Nhoord Audio Red v2s listening to predominately ambient electronic or ambient classical.



Currently I have my DSP chain as follows:


Good day to you as well, sir! Glad to hear other people are getting excited about the DSP/VST rolling possibilities!

This is my current headphone setup (for DT880s):

Headphone_DSP.png


I don’t always use every plugin, SlickEQ isn't a common fixture, but I use it a lot more than I thought I would when I originally downloaded it. It’s a ‘saturation’ plugin (I have decided to stop saying “tube simulation” plugin and start saying "saturation plugin" to in order to bring more positive connotations to using them). Anyway, it’s sounds great with older rock or jazz, and beats any tube amp in the world because it doesn’t smudge details, you get all the detail of an SS amp with just a hint of smoothness, and can EQ treble as need be. I have become a fan. I see you use something called TAL tube. Saturation plugin? How is that in your experience? You can post a review here to let other people know about it (me included): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...ated-via-plugins.657769/page-11#post-13706466

I’ll get to your original question about Case’s Meier Crossfeed simulation finally. I use a general setting of 10, but will go as high as 15-20 for older recordings that sound extremely separated to me, typically early stereo era mastering (the Hendrix album being a great example). Sometimes I go as low as 7 for genres that I think benefit from a strong sense of channel separation, like electronic or hip hop. For that kind of music, I like to use a setting that’s low enough not to notice, just to reduce fatigue.

The only DSP presets I have that remain constant are EQ. I use Xnor’s Dynamic EQ to double de-peak the DT880s and then GEQ7 parametric equalizer to shape tone. GEQ7 has a permanent 2db raise in the mids, and sometimes for fun (ok, most of the time for fun) I also bump up mid bass for some thump too.

When I listen on speakers, I only use one DSP (except for receiver EQ, which I’ll ignore here). That DSP is Channel Mixer.
CM1.png

CM2.png

CM3.png

CM4.png


Channel Mixer is a wonderful plugin. I personally like it better than Pro Logic because it gives so much control. There’s no individual channel mixing or delay control for Dolby. That makes it hard to customize for individual systems.

I’m always glad to discuss DSP. I feel like the guy sitting in the back of the bar with the odd looking Hawaiian shirt on, and somebody finally asked me “where’d you get that awesome shirt from?” “I’ll tell you all about it!”

Discovering all these plugins has really changed the way I listen to music, and added a new plateau of enjoyment for me.
 
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Dec 6, 2017 at 6:49 PM Post #327 of 2,192
I feel so tired and sick today and I don't know if I have made any sense here. I try, try and try and it never works. Why did I born? What is my place? Where do I belong to? So confused of life. Crossfeed gives some sense of control and purpose. That's why it hurts me so much when my beliefs are challenged.
It's not your beliefs that are being challenged, it's your attempt to impose them on others that is being challenged and objected to. It's your presenting your beliefs and opinions as fact, and mandatory for all headphone listening. It's that anyone who doesn't agree with you is deemed inferior to you. It's the quoting of your own made up statistics as proof of your opinion. It's the use of your own made-up terminology to describe a perceived problem that you believe is universal, yet there's no attempt to even acknowledge that others may not agree it's a problem or perceive it's a problem (unless, of course, they are inferior to you).

Your beliefs are not offensive. Your forcing of opinion on others, and labeling them as "wrong" if they don't accept your opinion, is highly offensive. It's your lack of respect for anyone else with a different opinion, even though the may well be in possession of experience and knowledge that you don't have.

Arrogance and lack of humility will get your opinions challenged every time. There's a big difference between explaining a belief, sharing an opinion, and telling everyone your way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong.

And this:
I feel so tired and sick today and I don't know if I have made any sense here. I try, try and try and it never works. Why did I born? What is my place? Where do I belong to? So confused of life. Crossfeed gives some sense of control and purpose. That's why it hurts me so much when my beliefs are challenged.
Seriously? This is just an audio forum, in the end it means very little, perhaps slightly more than the paper it's printed on (and there's no paper involved). Any of us should be able to walk away easily, and not look back... something several of us do occasionally to reset from the crazyness. I could list 100 things that are more important in life than any on-line forum. This forum will not answer any of the questions above, nor does anything posted here comment on them. It's not about the meaning of life, it's about the tech, knowledge and sharing info, exchange of ideas. But it's also not about making rules and telling those with a dissenting voice that they are deaf if they don't agree.
 
Dec 6, 2017 at 7:34 PM Post #328 of 2,192
I think it's a fact that signal processing can improve the sound of many recordings. The specific form of signal processing that works best varies from recording to recording, but it's pretty clear that having a toolbox full of DSPs is a very good idea.
 
Dec 7, 2017 at 3:08 AM Post #329 of 2,192
Good day to you as well, sir! Glad to hear other people are getting excited about the DSP/VST rolling possibilities!

This is my current headphone setup (for DT880s):

Headphone_DSP.png


I don’t always use every plugin, SlickEQ isn't a common fixture, but I use it a lot more than I thought I would when I originally downloaded it. It’s a ‘saturation’ plugin (I have decided to stop saying “tube simulation” plugin and start saying "saturation plugin" to in order to bring more positive connotations to using them). Anyway, it’s sounds great with older rock or jazz, and beats any tube amp in the world because it doesn’t smudge details, you get all the detail of an SS amp with just a hint of smoothness, and can EQ treble as need be. I have become a fan. I see you use something called TAL tube. Saturation plugin? How is that in your experience? You can post a review here to let other people know about it (me included): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...ated-via-plugins.657769/page-11#post-13706466

I’ll get to your original question about Case’s Meier Crossfeed simulation finally. I use a general setting of 10, but will go as high as 15-20 for older recordings that sound extremely separated to me, typically early stereo era mastering (the Hendrix album being a great example). Sometimes I go as low as 7 for genres that I think benefit from a strong sense of channel separation, like electronic or hip hop. For that kind of music, I like to use a setting that’s low enough not to notice, just to reduce fatigue.

The only DSP presets I have that remain constant are EQ. I use Xnor’s Dynamic EQ to double de-peak the DT880s and then GEQ7 parametric equalizer to shape tone. GEQ7 has a permanent 2db raise in the mids, and sometimes for fun (ok, most of the time for fun) I also bump up mid bass for some thump too.
@Strangelove424 Appreciate the feedback; especially the information regarding the Meier Crossfeed setting. I will try to lower it down to 7-8 again and see how that compares to my current 15-18 setting usage with my electronic tracks. I too agree that I like using the crossfeed feature mainly to reduce fatigue and I sincerely believe it is working in that regard very well.

I used to use the KA Golden Equaliser GEQ-7 with my B&O H6 headphones maybe I should re-install it however I have had good luck with the 31-Band Graphic Equalizer component from Foobar2k with my Nhoords so far.

As requested I added a post to that thread you linked regarding the TAL-Tube saturation plugin I have been using.

How does my DSP chain look? Curious to hear if I have my components/plugins in the correct/logical order.
upload_2017-12-7_14-57-21.png
 
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Dec 7, 2017 at 4:50 AM Post #330 of 2,192
How does the Meier Crossfeed plugin setting translate into actual crossfeed level? What does "10" mean? Actual crossfeed level is negative, weak crossfeed being for example -11 dB, moderate something like -7 dB and very strong -1 dB. Where does "7", "10" or "20" fall on the actual scale?
 

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