To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...

[SilverEars]

I think what you're reacting to is how 5.1 gets folded down into 2 channel for headphones. Dialogue works much better when it's isolated in that center channel speaker than when it is halfway between your ears with cans.

I'm not referring to downmixed stuff actually. Just in general downmix or not.

My JBL sounds perfectly fine(and more natural) out of 2 channels with downmix for movies. Just that headphones have a contained environment effects in sound for movies, and yes, dialogs sounds off. Headphones it sounds like the high frequencies are rolled off in comparison for movies for dialog, which I mean by muffled sounding.

For music, there are often times, my headphones setup sounds clearer, and better articulated in comparison to speakers, sounds better in general. Iems specifically does clarity and articulation well, but full sized with the cups I often have issues with how mids sounds, congested or recessed at times. Also for for tracks that probably needs the open speaker sounds, sounding compressed with certajn sounds if left and right channels are isolated to each ear, which is an issue with headphones.

 

[pinnahertz]

Crossfeed is like sonic umbrella: It doesn't stop the rain, but it keeps you from getting wet. My effort is to keep people dry. Your effort is to have only sunny days. My way is to buy an umbrella, your way is to move to a paradise island where it never rains.

My effort is to help people understand if it's really raining, and if the umbrella has holes in it or not.

Every island has weather issues, you just need to understand what they are and use the best tool properly.

Also, I don't speak to anyone with Dolby Headphone. I have never heard it, but I'm sure they are better off than I. I am speaking to people who don't use any kind of separation reduction system and don't even know about them or what to know more.

You might spend some energy looking into Dolby Headphone. Lots of research done by folks way smarter than either of us went into that.

If you really want to help people with their headphone experience you might try learning about the available tools.

 

[RRod]

Anyone have experience with any of the Atmos headphone stuff on a cell/tablet?

 

[bigshot]

For music, there are often times, my headphones setup sounds clearer, and better articulated in comparison to speakers, sounds better in general. Iems specifically does clarity and articulation well, but full sized with the cups I often have issues with how mids sounds, congested or recessed at times. Also for for tracks that probably needs the open speaker sounds, sounding compressed with certajn sounds if left and right channels are isolated to each ear, which is an issue with headphones.

It may be the kind of music you're listening to. I know when I listen to opera on headphones, it rarely sounds as good as on speakers. The complex blend of orchestral sound with voices and hall ambience can end up all getting jammed into the ear cups together and sound like mush. But when the same opera is played on speakers, the voices have direction and the ambience has room to bloom. That makes it easier to pick individual sounds out of the mix. Speakers are just better at complex blends of sound. Headphones are better with more straightforward mixes with everything carefully placed into carved out spots in the mix. If there's too much going on at the same time, it turns into a muddle.

 

[SilverEars]

It may be the kind of music you're listening to. I know when I listen to opera on headphones, it rarely sounds as good as on speakers. The complex blend of orchestral sound with voices and hall ambience can end up all getting jammed into the ear cups together and sound like mush. But when the same opera is played on speakers, the voices have direction and the ambience has room to bloom. That makes it easier to pick individual sounds out of the mix. Speakers are just better at complex blends of sound. Headphones are better with more straightforward mixes with everything carefully placed into carved out spots in the mix. If there's too much going on at the same time, it turns into a muddle.

Actually, my experience is opposite, speakers tend to sound unclear and muddled with tracks with too much going on. I would describe it as the openness of speakers, sounds like certain sounds are covered, and conflicting, and this happens to least degee with my favorite iems, but with cans, it's the cups that creates a bit of muddleness depending on the headphone.

 

[bigshot]

That could have something to do with the relative quality of your speakers compared to the relative quality of your headphones. It's a lot less expensive to buy really good headphones than it is really good speakers. My headphones cost over a grand, but my speaker system cost many times that.

 

[Malfunkt]

@71 dB and @pinnahertz , 71db setups only gives him a stereo downmix, so I can understand that crossfeed helps in that situation.

Definitely, without crossfeed, you really are missing the center channel.

 

[Strangelove424]

That could have something to do with the relative quality of your speakers compared to the relative quality of your headphones. It's a lot less expensive to buy really good headphones than it is really good speakers. My headphones cost over a grand, but my speaker system cost many times that.

Don't associate cost with performance. That's precisely the kind of wrongly held assumption we try to battle against in sound science. You can get good headphones for well under $1,000 and good speakers for well under a multitude of that.

I've heard you observe yourself that headphones can offer up more detail, almost artificial amounts of it. That is my experience as well, but I do not prefer headphone to speakers, or speakers to headphones, I simply see them as having their own unique listening experience. Regarding the extra detail, the proximity of the drivers to the ears mean a lack of attenuation of high frequencies, as well as the lack of weight/inertia in the small drivers used. There are unique benefits to headphones, just as there as unique downsides.

 

[71 dB]

You might spend some energy looking into Dolby Headphone. Lots of research done by folks way smarter than either of us went into that.

I did years ago when Nokia Lumia phones had it. I mean I newer had such phone, but I think I heard some Youtube demos online.

 

[pinnahertz]

@71 dB and @pinnahertz , 71db setups only gives him a stereo downmix, so I can understand that crossfeed helps in that situation.

Definitely, without crossfeed, you really are missing the center channel.

If he starts with an LtRt track, or 5.1 dowmmixed to LtRt, 71's crossfeed will help a bit with the center, which is encoded as L+R-3dB, but it will also partially cancel surround. It's important to understand that the net result is a remix that doesn't resemble anything the creators intended, but may satisfy someone's basic need to hype center a little. Where this application differs from crossfeed with stereo music is, crossfeed results in music are erratic, but since the LtRt downmix is very well standardized, crossfeed modifys all tracks the same way, of course creative intentions vary so final results will vary too. What will be consistent is the relative LCRS balance modification.

 

[pinnahertz]

I did years ago when Nokia Lumia phones had it. I mean I newer had such phone, but I think I heard some Youtube demos online.

Sounds more like you still need to study Dolby Headphone a bit more.

 

[bigshot]

Don't associate cost with performance.

Speakers are the one area of home audio that offers better quality for more money. That's because they're mechanical. It doesn't hold true for electronics. A circuit board is a circuit board. But when you're working with voice coils and acoustics, it don't come cheap. Expensive speakers are expensive for a reason. I'm sure there are lousy expensive ones, but cheap ones aren't generally very good. You get what you pay for with speakers.

Great speakers sound more natural than great headphones. I'll take speakers over headphones any day of the week. They sound more real. I have good headphones, but they stay in the drawer most of the time because they don't hold a candle to my speakers. The only reason I wear them is when I'm editing and I don't want to annoy the people around me. I never listen to headphones for pleasure

 

[71 dB]

Sounds more like you still need to study Dolby Headphone a bit more.

Why don't you educate me what I don't know about it since you want so much me to learn?
I have admitted many times, that HRTF-convolution techniques can surpass normal crossfeed.
Crossfeed reduces/removes excessive stereo separation => Flat silver screen, no fatique
HRTF-convolution techniques also create depth => 3D movie instead of 2D

DIY crossfeeder is easy and cheap to build. Dolby Headphone not so much.

 

[jgazal]

If you can use DSP to convolute HRTF-impulse responses with the music then of course do that. That's cross-feed too, just in more sophisticated form.

Every time you and pinnahertz exchange ideas, we all learn. That’s dialectics.

I have some doubts.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you said that convolution of HRTF-impulse responses is a more sophisticated form of crossfeed.

I was wondering that I would be able to measure with two microphones in my ears a binaural room impulse response. Then I thought such BRIR would “inseparably” contain not only my HRTF but also early reflections and reverberation from the room I measured in. But then I could possible (but way less probably) measure impulses inside an anechoic chamber and then measure only my HRTF.

So when you convolve a BRIR I see the reason for adding electronic crosstalk, because you are trying to replicate the whole system composed by the rig and room itself.

But when and why you would want to add electronic crossfeed if you convolve a generic HRTF or you had the opportunity to measure your own pure HRTF?

Would it be anyhow useful to avoid acoustic crosstalk with speakers playback or to avoid electronic crossfeed when you convolve even a BRIR with headphones playback?

What is the difference between a) the computation of the localization of sound object in a separate tracks (within a digital stream of many sound objects tracks) using a HRTF with density of lets say 720 measured coordinates (360/5 azimuth locations * 10 elevations) and b) the interpolation* of two coordinates (+ and - 5 degrees azimuth, zero elevation) between a 360 degrees of head movement freedom when playing binaural content**?

* interpolation for head tracking purposes
** or content with natural ILD and ITD; I see you have a “DIY Jecklin disk microphone” in your profile...

Would you need electronic crosstalk in such headphone playback environments with such content (binaural recordings)?

What happens if a generic or your personalized HRTF does not have a 720 density but let’s say 16 coordinates density and you need interpolation to calculate sound objects in their designated locations? The function to do that interpolation is the same function would you use to head tracking?

So if you have a HRTF of 16 coordinates and you apply interpolation not only to compute the sound object location but to rotate then acording to the user head would you still need crossfeed when playing Atmos content? And if you are playing third order ambisonics content?

If you want my opinion, I guess Atmos is intrinsically limited to and ambisonics was already designed to deal with acoustic crosstalk, but I am curious to know what would happen if you do not add electronic crossfeed*** when convolving a HRTF with headphones playback of Atmos and higher order ambisonics content.

*** Or deliberately and carefully control its level in different and lower intensities we would find in acoustical crosstalk with speakers; when dealing with acoustical crosstalk I am referring to speakers located on both hemisphere that are cut by the median plane. The speakers in the same hemisphere would be summed with the HRTF filter anyway and the speakers placed within the median plane would also be filtered by the HRTF without any electronic crosstalk setting.

Any idea?

 

[pinnahertz]

Why don't you educate me what I don't know about it since you want so much me to learn?

It was an observation, not a desire. In fact, I recognize that I cannot educate you. You seem to do best by educating yourself. Hence the sugestion.

I have admitted many times, that HRTF-convolution techniques can surpass normal crossfeed.

Hmm. Well, I think we should just pass on counting those many times, shouldn't we?

1. Crossfeed reduces/removes excessive stereo separation => 2. Flat silver screen, no fatique
3. HRTF-convolution techniques also create depth => 3D movie instead of 2D

4. DIY crossfeeder is easy and cheap to build. Dolby Headphone not so much.

1. I think that may be a first for you, but yes!
2. The implication that a screen type has anything to do with fatigue is false. The parallel of 3D movies and crossfeed is completely false.
3. We aren't talking about HRTF convolution only with Dolby Headphone (or Dolby Atmos headphone), though. It's not "creating" depth, it's placing sounds where they are intended. Again, the 2D/3D movie analogy is not applicable at all. Visual localization works completely differently that audio localization.