To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...

Jan 25, 2020 at 1:02 PM Post #1,651 of 2,192
Sure we do. In the 19th century a lot was written on the styles and performance habits of conductors. It was the era of the romantic superstar conductor (even moreso than Karajan!) Newspapers would run reviews, complete with timing for movements and notes on whether repeats were taken or not. I find pre-recording era performance styles to be very interesting.

No bigshot, we don't! There's two points here:

1. There was a fair amount written in the C19th, particularly in the form of newspaper reviews. However, think about that for a minute ... A newspaper review is typically half a page, rarely more than 1 page and is not intended to be a detailed analysis but the relatively brief personal impression of a critic. What we actually have is therefore a lot of vague, broad descriptions, that often contradict each other. So yes, we might have some information about the timing for movements for example but relatively little about how that timing was achieved, the timing and other performance characteristics of the sections and individual phrases within those movements. We can make some deductions about some of the precise performance details/styles but they're little more than guesses. Also of course, the "pre-recording era" isn't just defined by the era immediately prior to the recording era (the late Romantic Period), the baroque and classical periods are also "pre-recording era" and we have considerably less knowledge of the performance styles of these periods.

2. There has been a gradual reduction of interpretation freedom throughout the history of classical music performance, regardless of the introduction of recording. In the baroque era for example, it was common practice to completely change the orchestration (which instrument played which parts) and the actual notes themselves. In fact, not all the notes were even notated/written down to start with, notation was in the form of "figured bass": Bass notes with numerals/symbols underneath which implied the other notes of the chords but exactly what notes were played, where, when, how and on what instrument, was largely a matter of interpretation. If you go and buy a score for a piece by Bach, you're actually buying a fully notated interpretation by some scholar who probably never even met Bach. By the classical period, this was not the case. All the notes were explicitly notated for specific instruments and the musicians were expected NOT to change them. The exception was "Cadenzas", which were section/s within a concerto that were not notated, where the soloist performed unaccompanied and could play pretty much whatever they wanted. These cadenzas could last anywhere from about 20 secs to about 10 mins and we have reliable anecdotal evidence that soloists sometimes went off on a complete tangent, performing cadenzas that appeared to be completely unrelated to the rest of the concerto. By the romantic era, this freedom was largely a thing of the past, cadenzas were fully notated, although the soloists still had quite a lot of freedom in how they interpreted the cadenzas. Throughout the C17th, C18th, C19th and well into the C20th, notation and musical "markings" gradually became more precise/exacting and the performers' freedom of interpretation thereby reduced. However even in the baroque era, certain musical intents were extremely specific!

From the above two points: We have relatively little evidence of performances styles. Although there are some exceptions, even going back to the baroque era, mostly we just have rather vague generalisations based on educated guesswork, rather than actual specific details. And, although there's no doubt that recording has reduced interpretation freedom, it's not entirely clear how much of the reduced freedom is due to recording and how much would have occurred anyway, as part of the ongoing evolution of music performance (if recording had not been invented).

The way conductors were perceived and their purpose was much different in the late 19th century than either before or after that time. It was the golden age of the cult of the maestro. Instrumentalists too. Franz Liszt was like a rock star with women throwing themselves at him.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. It's hard to argue that any late C19th conductor had anywhere near the power, influence or income of say Karajan.
Same with instrumentalists/soloists. It's hard to argue against Farinelli, a C18th star so massive that the other top stars (and even ruling monarchs) begged for audiences. Handel tried for years, Mozart, Casanova and others travelled for days just to spend half an hour with him. He died fabulously wealthy, loaded with honours from different countries, still a household name throughout Europe decades after his retirement and still cited as the greatest operatic singer of all time even a century after his death. Arguably a better example than Liszt, would be Paganini (early C19th), who really defined and invented the blueprint of the "rock star" for all those who followed, including Liszt, who stated that he wanted to be as great a virtuoso on the piano as Paganini was on the violin. Reportedly (though almost certainly one of the numerous myths that sealed his reputation) upon his death a trunk was found amongst his possessions containing the knickers (underwear) of women who had thrown them at him during performances, 3,000 pairs! An outrageously extravagant lifestyle, an alcoholic by the time he was 16, a self-destructive gambler, a serial womanizer, a badly behaved convicted felon and seriously believed by many to have sold his soul to the devil (because his virtuosity was thought to be humanly impossible), Paganini rivalled or exceeded pretty much every actual "rock star" who followed! Not that Liszt didn't contribute to the "rock star" blueprint, he was wildly popular ("Lisztomania" for example) but far more of the "clean cut" rock star than the Faustian Paganini.

G
 
Jan 25, 2020 at 1:46 PM Post #1,652 of 2,192
Both of the plugins in this work well with different features - try both and see which you prefer

https://www.foobar2000.org/components/tag/crossfeed

Hmmmmmm! I'm liking that Meier Crossfeed, first time I actually hear a difference. I've tried several crossfeed's before but I've failed to pick up any difference, now it's quite audible it sends stuff farther away, things don't sound so much "in your face." Bass tends to lower a bit...but's it's not actually lower...as if it were farther away from the rest of everything? It sounds less congested. I take it there are more crossfeed filters correct?

Found another one, Bauer stereophonic-to-binaural DSP:

http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/

It has some interesting theory in there. Allegedly, this is the type of crossfeed filter that it's implemented the RME ADI-2 DAC.
 
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Jan 25, 2020 at 2:55 PM Post #1,653 of 2,192
Obviously we don't have anything as specific as a recording from the pre-recording era. And baroque and classical eras had a million exceptions to the rule because music making was regional. But the performance practices of the romantic and late romantic era were pretty well documented... at least as well as you can document music with words.

I found that fun conductor I was talking about... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Musard

Some quotes...

His concerts were described in 1837 as "a musical paradise" in "a spacious hall furnished with mirrors, couches, ottomans, statues, fountains, and floral decorations, and at one end a café attended by a troupe of ‘perfumed waiters'".

Audiences attended his concerts not only for the music, but to see the man himself in the act of leading the orchestra, regardless of the music being performed[ At climactic moments, Musard would dispose of his baton, throwing it into the audience, and rise to a standing position (standard practice at the time placed the conductor in a sitting position) to display his dominance over the happenings. Musard employed wild gestures including the hands, feet, arms, knees, and not the least grotesque facial expressions when leading. As a result, rumors circulated that he made a deal with the Devil, preceding Paganini's reputation,

He was not considered attractive physically, having acquired significant scarring from smallpox, a yellow complexion, and had an unkempt appearance, always dressing in a black suit that was not measured properly. A small man, dancers and concert audiences would lift him up and carry him on their shoulders around the concert hall at the conclusion. He became one of the top celebrities in Paris, to the point that effigies made of chocolate, marzipan, and gingerbread were made of his "grotesque" figure and sold and consumed in great quantities throughout Paris.

Musard's reputation was nothing short of international. Concerts in London were advertised as "a la Musard", as were those in the United States.

Someone should do an HIP concert a la Musard! It would be a lot of fun!

Here is a contemporary account...

Sometimes he rolls his eyes like two inflamed balls; sometimes he gazes calmly from right to left and from left to right. His indefatigable bow marks every note, from the whole note to the sixteenth note, and seems to lead the sounds to the ears of listeners.

With his gaze, Musard attracts all that surrounds him; with his bow, he brings back the lost, contains the audacious, warns the distracted, rallies the laggards, and restrains the impetuous. In the adagio, in the andante, his face is uncut, his mouth is smiling, his attitude is full of dignity and contemplation well formed.

In the allegro, his eye throws lightning, his nerves are agitated, and his body realizes the chimera of perpetual motion. Then he no longer beats the measure, he strikes it with redoubled blows, feet, hands, elbows and knees. His foot causes the dust to fly in the air and throws powder in his eyes.

Sometimes he gets up, looks at the ceiling, measures the audience from the height of his majesty, scratches his head or holds his ribs; sometimes he sits down and passes his hand over his forehead, seat of so much genius, receptacle of so much harmony, warehouse of so much responsibility.

In certain moments, the tip of his bow hovers over the note until its agony, and helps it to die; in others, the bow seems to pick up the note on the floor and to return to the desk. It is a curious spectacle, I assure you, that that of Musard conducting his orchestra. We never tire of admiring it.
 
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Jan 25, 2020 at 8:11 PM Post #1,654 of 2,192
Is the correct answer to the question posed in the title of this thread something like this?

Use crossfeed if it improves sound for you, but the ONLY justification to use crossfeed is it improves sound for you, because:

1) As crossfeed addresses merely ILD and pretty much ignores all other aspects of spatial hearing it can't be justified scientifically.

2) Crossfeed may work against artistic intent so it can't be justified from artistic point of view.

If this is the case then all I can say is crossfeed works INSANELY well for me for something with so non-existing justification! :astonished: So well, that I was fooled for years to think solid scientific justification exists!

This raises the question of the role of scientific justification in audio. When does scientific justification matter and when does it not matter? Up to this point science seems to have agreed with my ears, but can I trust this to be true from now on? I fear this means personal crisis if my fundamental belief system is questioned like this.
Science helps demonstrate facts. When do those facts matter to a given listener, is for him to decide. Because at the end of the day, listening to music is a personal activity and a subjective matter.

To be very clear, having a rational explanation for why you want to use crossfeed, does not make that explanation into a scientific fact about why everybody should want crossfeed, or why it's an objective improvement. It's easy to have a perfectly rational and objective reasoning leading to false conclusions. Almost everybody wrong about something(so all of us several times per day), followed some reasoning that made sense to them based on what they knew(including their biases), and what conclusions they were hoping for. Start with a false axiom, ignore relevant variables, or jump to conclusion(you've done all 3 for crossfeed), and chances are that you'll end up with something erroneous no matter how seriously you do everything else.
In this topic you have avoided a scientific approach as often as necessary to keep your claims alive. Always looking for what agrees with you, always ignoring or finding reasons to downplay the influence of the missing variables of crossfeed(based on a speaker model). Always finding excuses not to mind the errors between crossfeed EQ and a listener's own Head Related EQ(again, speaker model). Often copy pasting knowledge and conclusions from speakers, rooms and listeners in them, right onto crossfeed as if crossfeed was objectively the same system. And that despite how you completely agree that crossfeed is its own thing and not the same as speaker playback. And of course all the times when you're making arbitrary decisions about what matters objectively, based on your own subjective impressions. If all that is science, I'm the singer from Iron Maiden.


If I had to bet on why all this is happening here and nowhere else with you, I'd go with the sunk cost fallacy. You've invested yourself so much into crossfeed that you've lost all objectivity about it and instead you just hold on to that completely unnecessary need to justify it. Why does it have to be more than something you enjoy using?
 
Jan 26, 2020 at 9:48 AM Post #1,655 of 2,192
[1] Obviously we don't have anything as specific as a recording from the pre-recording era.
[2] And baroque and classical eras had a million exceptions to the rule because music making was regional.
[3] But the performance practices of the romantic and late romantic era were pretty well documented... [3a] at least as well as you can document music with words.
[4] I found that fun conductor I was talking about... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Musard

1. Yes, obviously but:

2. That's not really true bigshot. Again, a century before the late romantic period, Farinelli had toured Europe and his fame was such that some would travel from countries he didn't visit in order to hear him, Handel for example first heard Farinelli in Venice. This way performance style, technical ability, interpretation, etc., was disseminated throughout Europe, though not as quickly as the recording era allowed of course. And, Farinelli certainly wasn't the only artist in the baroque and classical periods to do this, it was pretty standard practice and also standard practice for young talented composers to travel internationally and study with established/famous composers. For example, by the time he was 18, Mozart had already spent more than a decade on non-stop tour throughout Europe as a child prodigy, studied composition in London with JC Bach and again, this was all before either Paganinni or Musard were even born! In fact, even during the renaissance period, 400 years before the romantic period, it was standard practice for ruling monarchs to take their court composers and musicians with them on international campaigns/tours/royal visits, where they heard and interacted with the local composers and musicians. This of course is why the "language" of musical markings was largely standardised in Italian, rather than regional languages. Ironically (to your argument), it wasn't until the romantic period and the rise of musical nationalism that some composers started to exclusively use their native language for musical markings, Wagner being an obvious example. There were of course regional differences in performance styles, interpretation, etc. during the baroque and classical periods but then, there are still a few regional differences even today, long after the beginning of the recording era.

3. Again bigshot, that's not really true. Your quote is an excellent example because it's entirely typical. It uses flowery language to describe that Musard dramatised the role of conductor but it gives us almost no specific detail about how that affected the musical interpretation. For example: "Then he no longer beats the measure, he strikes it with redoubled blows, feet, hands, elbows and knees. His foot causes the dust to fly in the air and throws powder in his eyes." - Yes, interesting but how exactly did that affect the musical interpretation? Exactly what differences in note production, phrasing, etc., did this cause? There is the occasional vague clue, for example: "In certain moments, the tip of his bow hovers over the note until its agony, and helps it to die ..." - This statement implies that Musard is willing to extend the duration of certain notes for dramatic impact, more so than other conductors of the time but again, it's still rather vague; which notes is he willing to extend this way, extend them by how much and "helps it to die" from what to what?
3a. This statement is obviously NOT true and is what invalidates point #3. For example, I'm sure you must be aware that it's entirely possible to have a detailed written analysis as opposed to just a brief flowery review, not least because I mentioned it in a previous post! In fact, we have an entire field within music that's effectively dedicated to exactly such detailed analysis: "Musicology". While musicology didn't emerge as a a specifically named independent scholarly field until the late romantic period, it was a standard part of music education long before. Arguably, the single most important/influential piece of Musicology was written by Johann Fux, an entire book (published in 1725) of extremely detailed analysis of late renaissance counterpoint (specifically as defined by Palestrina). This certainly wasn't the only book of such detailed analysis at that time, there were many. In fact Bach had a personal library of them! But Fux's was the most influential, reaching the status almost of a "bible" for composers who followed: Haydn reportedly taught himself counterpoint by reading it, Mozart's copy is full of his personal annotations, Beethoven and pretty much every classical music composer since has studied it in whole or in part. However, all these analyses deal primarily or exclusively with compositional tools/styles/structures, again, we have relatively little analysis of how performers interpreted and performed those compositions. It's only relatively recently (the late C20th) that previous performance styles/interpretations have been studied in earnest, with the formation of ensembles like the Taverner Consort and several others who try to recreate them but the term for this type of performance itself highlights the problem: Originally called "Period/Authentic Performance" - This is really a marketing term with little scientific/scholarly justification, we simply don't know what performances of the pre-recording era sounded like. For this reason, most now prefer the term "Historically Informed Performance" (HIP) although quite a few dispute even this term, because it implies they're actually "informed" rather than largely based on educated opinion/guesswork!

4. Yes, I'm aware of Musard and there's no doubt that he revolutionised the role of the conductor, raising it from near anonymity to near the status of the "rock star" soloists. He popularised the conductor, turning the role into a sort of "Front Man". We can reasonably infer that he was a talented conductor, rather than ONLY a talented "Show Man" but even that is not entirely clear! It's really as the "Show Man" that he gained popularity and influence. He invented the "Promenade Concert" for the masses but pretty much all of his performances were actually mostly dance music, with the occasional classical music except and accounts/reviews vary as to how good he was as an actual classical music conductor. A comparison with say Karajan is specious IMHO. While both were extremely influential, Karajan was an amazing character who wielded unprecedented power within the classical music world, and I'm not necessarily using the word "amazing" as a compliment. There's a lot about Karajan that wasn't widely known/publicised outside those who worked with him closely. In a sense though, you've kind of disproved your own assertion, you had to find "the fun conductor you were talking about"! I had to rack my brain despite years of formal classical music education and I'd guess that probably no one in this sub-forum has ever heard of Musard, not so with the names of Paganini or Liszt though ...

G
 
Jan 26, 2020 at 1:02 PM Post #1,656 of 2,192
Yes, most people have never heard about 19th century conductors. But there's lots of fascinating information on the internet.
 
Jan 26, 2020 at 5:50 PM Post #1,657 of 2,192
In this topic you have avoided a scientific approach as often as necessary to keep your claims alive. Always looking for what agrees with you, always ignoring or finding reasons to downplay the influence of the missing variables of crossfeed(based on a speaker model). Always finding excuses not to mind the errors between crossfeed EQ and a listener's own Head Related EQ(again, speaker model). Often copy pasting knowledge and conclusions from speakers, rooms and listeners in them, right onto crossfeed as if crossfeed was objectively the same system. And that despite how you completely agree that crossfeed is its own thing and not the same as speaker playback. And of course all the times when you're making arbitrary decisions about what matters objectively, based on your own subjective impressions. If all that is science, I'm the singer from Iron Maiden.

Maybe in the beginning I let people think I think crossfeed makes headphones sound EXACTLY like speakers, but I didn't think anyone to think that. No, simple crossfeed can't do that. I can however make ILD more similar to speakers, but nothing else is similar! Nothing!!! Just this one thing, ILD. I'm just somebody how things fixing this one thing is much better than doing nothing. That's because my spatial hearing is easily fooled so that fixing this one things fools it to think other things are perhaps fixed too, ot those other things don't matter to me. Somehow crossfeed just works for me. Doesn't matter if science explains it or not. It works.
 
Jan 27, 2020 at 3:20 AM Post #1,658 of 2,192
I think a lot of headphone users don't know what a good speaker system in a good room sounds like.
 
Jan 28, 2020 at 6:00 AM Post #1,659 of 2,192
I think a lot of headphone users don't know what a good speaker system in a good room sounds like.

I think a lot of drivers don't know what driving a Ferrari feels like. The good news is they still get from A to B.
 
Jan 28, 2020 at 12:11 PM Post #1,660 of 2,192
But I don't think a lot of Kia drivers would insist that their car handles just like a Ferrari. Audiophiles are special.
 
Jan 28, 2020 at 3:49 PM Post #1,661 of 2,192
But I don't think a lot of Kia drivers would insist that their car handles just like a Ferrari. Audiophiles are special.

I believe Kia owners are annoyed by filty rich people bragging about they Ferrari cars… …the point here is headphones don't give the soundstage you get with speakers in a room, but that doesn't mean headphone listening can't be enjoyable. It can be just like a Kia can take you from A to B.
 
Jan 29, 2020 at 1:12 PM Post #1,663 of 2,192
I believe Kia owners are annoyed by filty rich people bragging about they Ferrari cars.

I drive a cheap car because I don't care. If someone else cares, it doesn't bother me a bit. I'm not naturally a jealous or vindictive person. We all work hard and spend our money on whatever we want. No one has the right to try to passive aggressively shame us for choosing cars, stereo equipment or limited edition plates with clowns on them. But you can't eat dinner off a Ferrari or drive your stereo to work.
 
Jan 29, 2020 at 2:17 PM Post #1,664 of 2,192
I drive a cheap car because I don't care. If someone else cares, it doesn't bother me a bit. I'm not naturally a jealous or vindictive person. We all work hard and spend our money on whatever we want. No one has the right to try to passive aggressively shame us for choosing cars, stereo equipment or limited edition plates with clowns on them. But you can't eat dinner off a Ferrari or drive your stereo to work.

I don't own a car at all. Helsinki has great public transportation. I use mostly headphones with crossfeed and it fools my spatial hearing so that I experience "miniature" soundstage. Occationally I listen to speakers, for example today I listened to Badly Drawn Boy's Mercury Music Prize winning album " The Hour of Bewilderbeast " and Logh's album " North " on speakers. I have never got into Badly Drawn Boy, but I like Logh (a Swedish softrock band) quite a lot. Powerful and beautiful music no matter how well the soundstage is rendered.
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 2:54 AM Post #1,665 of 2,192
Take a bus! Go to the movies to listen to sound! Listen to better music!
 

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