Tidal Lossless Streaming

[BobSmith8901]

Unfortunately in the grand scheme of things the number of users that use a DAP for Tidal (or the Hifi-Plus subscription that gives access to resolutions beyond 16/44.1) actually represents a minority for Tidal. Same applies (to a lesser extent) to Qobuz. Tidal will most probably leave it up to the DAP manufacturers to develop updates to newer Android versions. And the fact that players like Naim who never offered Tidal MQA to begin with, but instead show a preference for Qobuz are not really planning on jumping on the Tidal Flac train does not offer much incentive to Tidal to solve this mess. In the end, their user majority sits on platforms that do not have any issue

The whole transition from MQA to FLAC probably has been quite a costly, yet unforeseen excersise for Tidal. I assume they will want to get out of this whole MQA / FLAC mess without on-boarding additional costs...

The impact of this however is further reaching than just DAPs with older android versions. Look at software developers responsible for apps / ecosystems such as ROON, Audirvana, Jriver, UAPP, Hiby Music that offer Tidal high-res access in their software. Only those that do not live of lifetime license fees will have some possibility to recuperate some of the development costs for this.

So in the end I am really curious about the fallout of all of this. Will it make (audiophile) subscribers move to Qobuz or Deezer? Will Spotify choose this moment to drop their Hifi tier into the market? Who knows, but it's bloody interesting to watch

I'd have to think that there will be at least some pressure put on Tidal to try to re-code their app for the lower Androids and would provide a more universal fix than hardware manufacturers trying to update to higher Android or a possibly complicated firmware update. For Tidal it may not be a big deal to do and they just overlooked testing with the lower Androids.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Unfortunately in the grand scheme of things the number of users that use a DAP for Tidal (or the Hifi-Plus subscription that gives access to resolutions beyond 16/44.1) actually represents a minority for Tidal. Same applies (to a lesser extent) to Qobuz. Tidal will most probably leave it up to the DAP manufacturers to develop updates to newer Android versions. And the fact that players like Naim who never offered Tidal MQA to begin with, but instead show a preference for Qobuz are not really planning on jumping on the Tidal Flac train does not offer much incentive to Tidal to solve this mess. In the end, their user majority sits on platforms that do not have any issue

The whole transition from MQA to FLAC probably has been quite a costly, yet unforeseen excersise for Tidal. I assume they will want to get out of this whole MQA / FLAC mess without on-boarding additional costs...

The impact of this however is further reaching than just DAPs with older android versions. Look at software developers responsible for apps / ecosystems such as ROON, Audirvana, Jriver, UAPP, Hiby Music that offer Tidal high-res access in their software. Only those that do not live of lifetime license fees will have some possibility to recuperate some of the development costs for this.

So in the end I am really curious about the fallout of all of this. Will it make (audiophile) subscribers move to Qobuz or Deezer? Will Spotify choose this moment to drop their Hifi tier into the market? Who knows, but it's bloody interesting to watch

But it shouldn't really be this hard to make an Android (any version) play some FLACs...

 

[WDitters]

But it shouldn't really be this hard to make an Android (any version) play some FLACs...

True .. however it apparently seems to be all about Tidal wanting to save costs and complexity by simply bundling all high-res formats under the MAX denominator. My guess is also that they do not immediately want to be accused of killing off MQA by visibly differentiating between MQA and hi-res FLAC .. Probably due to contractual commitments ... My gut feeling says that many Tidal users would immediately single out the FLAC streams and prioritize those over MQA. That would probably be a (the?) "Coup de Grace" for MQA ...

 

[rlw6534]

But it shouldn't really be this hard to make an Android (any version) play some FLACs...

FYI, Tidal seems to work just fine on my FiiO M11 Pro with Android 7, including high-res flacs, so I'm not sure the Android version is the key.

 

[BobSmith8901]

FYI, Tidal seems to work just fine on my FiiO M11 Pro with Android 7, including high-res flacs, so I'm not sure the Android version is the key.

Hi rlw6534--That's interesting. Can you confirm the Tidal app number you're using and confirm that when you play a Tidal track that is MAX, that you're not really decoding an MQA? I know sometimes I've thought that and saw that my Shanling DAP was showing 705.6 or 768 in the DAC readout at top indicative of 16X unfolding.

 

[rlw6534]

Hi rlw6534--That's interesting. Can you confirm the Tidal app number you're using and confirm that when you play a Tidal track that is MAX, that you're not really decoding an MQA? I know sometimes I've thought that and saw that my Shanling DAP was showing 705.6 or 768 in the DAC readout at top indicative of 16X unfolding.

Sure. The Tidal version is 2.88.1. The M11 Pro shows an MQA symbol next to the rate in the status bar when decoding MQA tracks, which is a bit different than Hiby DAPs which show the unfolded rate. I have seen some tracks that are still MQA and non-MQA at 44.1, 48 and 96 KHz. I haven't seen 192 yet but I haven't searched for that.

 

[BobSmith8901]

Sure. The Tidal version is 2.88.1. The M11 Pro shows an MQA symbol next to the rate in the status bar when decoding MQA tracks, which is a bit different than Hiby DAPs which show the unfolded rate. I have seen some tracks that are still MQA and non-MQA at 44.1, 48 and 96 KHz. I haven't seen 192 yet but I haven't searched for that.

Thanks for the info.

Was wondering--Can you try a couple of particular albums that I know are FLAC only in the latest Tidal app? Ensure you have Wi Fi streaming Audio settings in your M11 Pro Tidal set at MAX (not High) ?

1. Eberhard Weber-Colours of Chloë (FLAC 24/96) [this one refuses to start at all on my Shanling M6 Pro 21 (Android 7.1.1) and the quality indicator in the player stays at Low; one just keeps clicking on the play arrow and there is no response--this is the typical behavior reported by folks with under Android 11 when trying to play a FLAC only in the new Tidal].

2. The Doors L.A. Woman (FLAC 24/192) [this one will play for me but buffers out at 35s and then restarts. FLAC 24/192 in the new Tidal is a strange outlier (for me) and am curious if someone that has fast internet that can otherwise handle 24/192 streams, if this will play normally. Note--there have been reports of people having buffering issues with Tidal 24/192 so it may be, at least some of the time, at their end. I know my internet can handle 24/96 FLAC on my Android 11+ players in new Tidal but buffer on 24/192 as a rule].

Thanks!

 

[rlw6534]

Thanks for the info.

Was wondering--Can you try a couple of particular albums that I know are FLAC only in the latest Tidal app? Ensure you have Wi Fi streaming Audio settings in your M11 Pro Tidal set at MAX (not High) ?

1. Eberhard Weber-Colours of Chloë (FLAC 24/96) [this one refuses to start at all on my Shanling M6 Pro 21 (Android 7.1.1) and the quality indicator in the player stays at Low; one just keeps clicking on the play arrow and there is no response--this is the typical behavior reported by folks with under Android 11 when trying to play a FLAC only in the new Tidal].

2. The Doors L.A. Woman (FLAC 24/192) [this one will play for me but buffers out at 35s and then restarts. FLAC 24/192 in the new Tidal is a strange outlier (for me) and am curious if someone that has fast internet that can otherwise handle 24/192 streams, if this will play normally. Note--there have been reports of people having buffering issues with Tidal 24/192 so it may be, at least some of the time, at their end. I know my internet can handle 24/96 FLAC on my Android 11+ players in new Tidal but buffer on 24/192 as a rule].

Thanks!

Yes, I have quality set to Max

Eberhard Weber-Colours of Chloë plays at 96 kHz, non-MQA

The Doors L.A. Woman plays at 192 kHz, also non-MQA

Both albums play perfectly on my M11 Pro. Note that I have solid 1 Gb fiber for internet.

Update:

I am getting occasional stutters on The Doors, but it keeps on playing.

 

[BobSmith8901]

Yes, I have quality set to Max

Eberhard Weber-Colours of Chloë plays at 96 kHz, non-MQA

The Doors L.A. Woman plays at 192 kHz, also non-MQA

Both albums play perfectly on my M11 Pro. Note that I have solid 1 Gb fiber for internet.

Update:

I am getting occasional stutters on The Doors, but it keeps on playing.

Wow, 1 Gb fiber, that's obviously not going to be part of any streaming issue! Those stutters on L.A. Woman are indicative of a possible need of a Tidal fix as that has been reported by others, like I said.

I wonder if your FiiO's Android 7 customization is somehow different than others. I think I remember that someone with an M9 had the non-play problem too and that one is also at A7 I think. I'll have to trot out my Shanling and upgrade again out of 2.86 and see what happens, just to be sure Tidal hasn't made a tweak somewhere that fixed it. I'll definitely report back if it's working.

 

[peterinvan]

Yes, I have quality set to Max

Eberhard Weber-Colours of Chloë plays at 96 kHz, non-MQA

The Doors L.A. Woman plays at 192 kHz, also non-MQA

Both albums play perfectly on my M11 Pro. Note that I have solid 1 Gb fiber for internet.

Update:

I am getting occasional stutters on The Doors, but it keeps on playing.

Tidal 2.87.1.1125. Set to "Max"
FiiO M11 Pro Android 7.0
Internet at 50 Mbit/sec

Eberhard Weber-Colours of Chloë plays at 96 kHz, non-MQA

The Doors L.A. Woman also plays at 96 kHz, non-MQA

No stutters at all.

 

[peterinvan]

True .. however it apparently seems to be all about Tidal wanting to save costs and complexity by simply bundling all high-res formats under the MAX denominator. My guess is also that they do not immediately want to be accused of killing off MQA by visibly differentiating between MQA and hi-res FLAC .. Probably due to contractual commitments ... My gut feeling says that many Tidal users would immediately single out the FLAC streams and prioritize those over MQA. That would probably be a (the?) "Coup de Grace" for MQA ...

Does anyone know it Tidal will save money, not having to pay MQA any longer?

 

[Ferdinando1968]

Many wonder, but so far I have not seen any official news.

 

[rlw6534]

Tidal 2.87.1.1125. Set to "Max"
FiiO M11 Pro Android 7.0
Internet at 50 Mbit/sec

Eberhard Weber-Colours of Chloë plays at 96 kHz, non-MQA

The Doors L.A. Woman also plays at 96 kHz, non-MQA

No stutters at all.

There are multiple versions of L.A. Woman on Tidal, so we may have chosen different versions. I tested the 50th anniversary version.

 

[UrbanAnimism777]

This is very interesting. It seems that Fiio might be customizing their Android in a way that's not causing the app to fail...

 

[BS5711]

I think Tidal is still trying to hide a lot of MQA files with some kind of code that makes a DAC not display MQA.

I have come across a number of songs in recommended playlists that shown on my Fiio M11 Plus LTD as 88.2kHz with no MQA symbol but when played to my iFi Gryphon from a source that allows MQA pass through they show as 44.1kHz MQA.

Seems whatever they are doing to the code to hide the MQA file doesn't fool all DACs.

Likewise when I switch to HIGH quality not MAX quality the Gryphon still displays 44.1 MQA but the M11 Plus shows only 44.1, I suspect that the switch to lower quality isn't in fact swapping to CD quality FLAC at all some are simply hidden MQA files with code to show a lower sample rate.

I suspect that is why everything is lumped together as MAX, they hope that we won't figure out that a lot of it is MQA trying to be hidden with a bit of code.

I gave up on Tidal because of this nonsense and essentially dishonesty and came back with the promise of FLAC, hopefully they get their act together and are honest with the consumers that are keeping them afloat.

The album on the image below shows as MQA on some gear but not others.