[peterinvan]

I wonder how much Tidal (and record companies) will save by eliminating MQA “fees”?

My guess is that Mr. Dorsey’s first question after taking on Tidal was “Why are we paying MQA”

 

[BobSmith8901]

Cross-posting this from original thread as this could possibly apply to anyone having problems with the new Tidal Android app re playing FLAC:

Has anyone else with a Shanling M6 Pro 21 found that they cannot play FLAC files in the new Tidal 2.87.XX Android app?

To qualify that a bit: In the new 2.87 Tidal app, I cannot get any 24/96 FLAC to start play. This is with the streaming audio quality set to MAX in settings The play button is unresponsive and the quality button stays on Low. Nothing that is FLAC 24/96 plays.

Examples of 24/96 that won't play at all:

Bruce Springsteen Darkness on the Edge of Town
Eberhard Weber The Colours of Chloe
Brian Bromberg The Magic of Moonlight

If I set the audio quality to HIGH, they will play but you're limited to 16/44.1.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

A strange caveat to this is that certain albums that are FLAC 24/192 will play, but in my case stop and start with buffering (my internet is the issue here) but they do play.

ZZ Top Tres Hombres (not the 2006 expanded one, the regular one)
Doors L.A. Woman
Cream Disraeli Gears

The above 24/192 FLAC albums will play with the caveat as stated above.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Other interesting notes:

A user on the Hiby R5 Gen 2 (Android 8.1) thread notes the same issue--won't play FLAC with the new Tidal app and a user stated on Reddit that their Hiby RS6 (android 9), yes, I am assuming the one with the R2R ladder DAC, also does not play FLAC on the new Tidal 2.87.

Is it the Android level?, as my other phones/tablets with Android 11, 12 and 13 play the new Tidal 100%.

Is it because it's a DAP with a chip configured with MQA decoding as all of the reported non-playing DAPs have MQA 16X unfolding capability.
My phones and tablets with Android 11 and above do not have MQA decoder chips and they all play the new Tidal fine.

Is it something configured incompletely in the new Tidal's Android app player that is not taking into account the particulars of these players' implementation of the Tidal app?

Wondering if anyone with a higher Android level DAP (say, 10 or above) that has a 16X unfolding MQA-capable DAC can play the new Tidal app without issue?

I've since reverted back to V. 2.86 on my Pro 21 and my DAP plays normally, but hopefully this will be fixed in future Tidal app and/or firmware updates.

 

[Deferenz]

I’m cross posting this from the AK SP3000 board in case someone here may have experienced this with Tidal.

I hope someone can help me with this. I’m trying to download a playlist from Tidal to my SP3000. It should be straight forward as you hit the download button on the playlist and it then copies it to your chosen drive. When I do so though I get the message as you can see in the first picture. When I go to Devices it only shows one device and that is the SP3000. It did beforehand also have my iPhone but I deleted it. You can see in picture two that only one device is showing.

I am trying to download from the download Tidal version (version 2.86.0) as seen in the third picture. (Sorry about the phone shadow on the photos)

Does anyone know how to solve this?

 

[BobSmith8901]

I’m cross posting this from the AK SP3000 board in case someone here may have experienced this with Tidal.

I hope someone can help me with this. I’m trying to download a playlist from Tidal to my SP3000. It should be straight forward as you hit the download button on the playlist and it then copies it to your chosen drive. When I do so though I get the message as you can see in the first picture. When I go to Devices it only shows one device and that is the SP3000. It did beforehand also have my iPhone but I deleted it. You can see in picture two that only one device is showing.

I am trying to download from the download Tidal version (version 2.86.0) as seen in the third picture. (Sorry about the phone shadow on the photos)

Does anyone know how to solve this?

Have you tried going to Apps/Tidal/Storage/delete cache and delete settings (you'll have to resign-in)?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Data points:
1. I logged onto TIDAL using the latest client today (2.88.1) and was able to play the music on one of our players, the R6 pro II. It runs Android 12. Interestingly some "MAX" tracks were playing at 705.6 / 768kHz, which would seem to mean they were being treated as MQA by our audio pipeline.
2. On another device (RS6, Android 9, Snapdragon 660) I replicated the bug of not being able to play much of anything. I looked up logcat and got the following relevant entries:

08-19 22:07:20.883 8256 8256 I OMXMaster: makeComponentInstance(OMX.qti.audio.decoder.flac) in omx@1.0-service process
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: setConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigPriority(0x6f800002)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ACodec : codec does not support config priority (err -2147483648)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no bitwidth, setting default bitwidth as 16 bits
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no min blksize, setting default block size as 16
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no max blksize, setting default block size as 16
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no min frame size, setting default frame size as 0
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no max frame size, setting default frame size as 0
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 D SoftFlacDecoder: CSD: nChannels=2, nSampleRate=0, nBitsPerSample=16
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 D SoftFlacDecoder: CSD: nMinBlkSize=16, nMaxBlkSize=16
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 D SoftFlacDecoder: CSD: nMinFrmSize=0, nMaxFrmSize=0
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: setConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigPriority(0x6f800002)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ACodec : codec does not support config priority (err -2147483648)
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: setConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigOperatingRate(0x6f800003)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ACodec : codec does not support config operating rate (err -2147483648)
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: getConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigAndroidVendorExtension(0x6f100004)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.886 5427 8338 W ExtendedACodec: Failed to get extension for extradata parameter
08-19 22:07:20.887 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(524288) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 524288)
08-19 22:07:20.889 653 653 I chatty : uid=1000(system) allocator@1.0-s identical 2 lines
08-19 22:07:20.890 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(524288) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 524288)
08-19 22:07:20.891 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(2097152) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 2097152)
08-19 22:07:20.891 653 653 I chatty : uid=1000(system) allocator@1.0-s identical 2 lines
08-19 22:07:20.892 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(2097152) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 2097152)
08-19 22:07:20.895 989 989 I /system/bin/tombstoned: received crash request for pid 8256


... and so on.

The comparable entries on the Android 12 device:
08-19 22:20:08.799 7311 7642 D CCodec : allocate(c2.android.flac.decoder)
08-19 22:20:08.799 1119 2063 V C2Store : in init
08-19 22:20:08.799 1119 2063 V C2Store : loading dll
08-19 22:20:08.801 7311 7642 I CCodec : Created component [c2.android.flac.decoder]
08-19 22:20:08.801 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: read media type: audio/flac
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: algo.buffers.max-count.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: output.subscribed-indices.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: input.buffers.allocator-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: output.buffers.allocator-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: algo.buffers.allocator-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: output.buffers.pool-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.804 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: algo.buffers.pool-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.804 7311 7642 I CCodecConfig: query failed after returning 8 values (BAD_INDEX)
08-19 22:20:08.805 7311 7642 D CCodec : [c2.android.flac.decoder] buffers are bound to CCodec for this session
08-19 22:20:08.805 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: no c2 equivalents for flags
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: c2 config diff is Dict {
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: c2::u32 raw.channel-count.value = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: c2::u32 raw.sample-rate.value = 44100
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: }
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 W Codec2Client: query -- param skipped: index = 1107298332.
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : setup formats input: AMessage(what = 0x00000000) = {
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t channel-count = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t sample-rate = 44100
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t max-input-size = 32768
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : }
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : setup formats output: AMessage(what = 0x00000000) = {
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t channel-count = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t sample-rate = 44100
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t android._config-pcm-encoding = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : }

Upon further research, CCodec is something unique to Android 11 and above. Whereas, ACodec is obviously something available since 9 or before. The context: https://ignitarium.com/android-code...dia-applications-for-newer-android-platforms/

It would seem to me that the current TIDAL app is coded exclusively for CCodec, or at least, there's some bug when folding down to a version of Android where CCodec didn't exist.

One solution is for us to upgrade all our DAPs to 11 and up, but as some of you know, our ability to do update the Android version is pretty much tied to the SoC used and the SDK provided.

Another solution, since the app does allow installation on all our DAPs ranging down to Android 6, is for TIDAL to make use of the info given above to debug the app for older versions of Android, so that they will actually run properly on devices they would install on.

I would contact TIDAL directly, but I actually don't have any insider line with them anymore If someone manages to get their attention, they're welcome to direct TIDAL to my corporate email joe@hiby.com for followup.

Cheers,
Joe

 

[rlw6534]

Still not working on original R5 (Android 8) either with 2.88.1 version...

 

[BobSmith8901]

Data points:
1. I logged onto TIDAL using the latest client today (2.88.1) and was able to play the music on one of our players, the R6 pro II. It runs Android 12. Interestingly some "MAX" tracks were playing at 705.6 / 768kHz, which would seem to mean they were being treated as MQA by our audio pipeline.
2. On another device (RS6, Android 9, Snapdragon 660) I replicated the bug of not being able to play much of anything. I looked up logcat and got the following relevant entries:

08-19 22:07:20.883 8256 8256 I OMXMaster: makeComponentInstance(OMX.qti.audio.decoder.flac) in omx@1.0-service process
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: setConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigPriority(0x6f800002)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ACodec : codec does not support config priority (err -2147483648)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no bitwidth, setting default bitwidth as 16 bits
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no min blksize, setting default block size as 16
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no max blksize, setting default block size as 16
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no min frame size, setting default frame size as 0
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ExtendedACodec: no max frame size, setting default frame size as 0
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 D SoftFlacDecoder: CSD: nChannels=2, nSampleRate=0, nBitsPerSample=16
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 D SoftFlacDecoder: CSD: nMinBlkSize=16, nMaxBlkSize=16
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 D SoftFlacDecoder: CSD: nMinFrmSize=0, nMaxFrmSize=0
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: setConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigPriority(0x6f800002)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ACodec : codec does not support config priority (err -2147483648)
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: setConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigOperatingRate(0x6f800003)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.885 5427 8338 I ACodec : codec does not support config operating rate (err -2147483648)
08-19 22:07:20.885 8256 8256 E OMXNodeInstance: getConfig(0xec2a9280:qti.decoder.flac, ConfigAndroidVendorExtension(0x6f100004)) ERROR: Undefined(0x80001001)
08-19 22:07:20.886 5427 8338 W ExtendedACodec: Failed to get extension for extradata parameter
08-19 22:07:20.887 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(524288) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 524288)
08-19 22:07:20.889 653 653 I chatty : uid=1000(system) allocator@1.0-s identical 2 lines
08-19 22:07:20.890 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(524288) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 524288)
08-19 22:07:20.891 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(2097152) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 2097152)
08-19 22:07:20.891 653 653 I chatty : uid=1000(system) allocator@1.0-s identical 2 lines
08-19 22:07:20.892 653 653 W AshmemAllocator: ashmem_create_region(2097152) returning hidl_memory(0x73cde2c100, 2097152)
08-19 22:07:20.895 989 989 I /system/bin/tombstoned: received crash request for pid 8256


... and so on.

The comparable entries on the Android 12 device:
08-19 22:20:08.799 7311 7642 D CCodec : allocate(c2.android.flac.decoder)
08-19 22:20:08.799 1119 2063 V C2Store : in init
08-19 22:20:08.799 1119 2063 V C2Store : loading dll
08-19 22:20:08.801 7311 7642 I CCodec : Created component [c2.android.flac.decoder]
08-19 22:20:08.801 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: read media type: audio/flac
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: algo.buffers.max-count.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: output.subscribed-indices.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: input.buffers.allocator-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: output.buffers.allocator-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: algo.buffers.allocator-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.803 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: output.buffers.pool-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.804 7311 7642 D ReflectedParamUpdater: extent() != 1 for single value type: algo.buffers.pool-ids.values
08-19 22:20:08.804 7311 7642 I CCodecConfig: query failed after returning 8 values (BAD_INDEX)
08-19 22:20:08.805 7311 7642 D CCodec : [c2.android.flac.decoder] buffers are bound to CCodec for this session
08-19 22:20:08.805 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: no c2 equivalents for flags
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: c2 config diff is Dict {
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: c2::u32 raw.channel-count.value = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: c2::u32 raw.sample-rate.value = 44100
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodecConfig: }
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 W Codec2Client: query -- param skipped: index = 1107298332.
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : setup formats input: AMessage(what = 0x00000000) = {
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t channel-count = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t sample-rate = 44100
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t max-input-size = 32768
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : }
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : setup formats output: AMessage(what = 0x00000000) = {
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t channel-count = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t sample-rate = 44100
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : int32_t android._config-pcm-encoding = 2
08-19 22:20:08.806 7311 7642 D CCodec : }

Upon further research, CCodec is something unique to Android 11 and above. Whereas, ACodec is obviously something available since 9 or before.

It would seem to me that the current TIDAL app is coded exclusively for CCodec, or at least, there's some bug when folding down to a version of Android where CCodec didn't exist.

One solution is for us to upgrade all our DAPs to 11 and up, but as some of you know, our ability to do update the Android version is pretty much tied to the SoC used and the SDK provided.

Another solution, since the app does allow installation on all our DAPs ranging down to Android 6, is for TIDAL to make use of the info given above to debug the app for older versions of Android, so that they will actually run properly on devices they would install on.

I would contact TIDAL directly, but I actually don't have any insider line with them anymore If someone manages to get their attention, they're welcome to direct TIDAL to my corporate email joe@hiby.com for followup.

Cheers,
Joe

Thanks for doing all this work Joe! From my anecdotal research it appeared that many Android devices (DAPs and phones) under Android 10 would not work with the new Tidal app (2.87.XX and above) but it looks like from your data that under 11 and no FLAC. I guess Android 10 is still unknown if it'll work but probably not.

All of my gears that are Android 11, 12 and 13 work fine with the new app but my one and only relatively modern DAP--a Shanling M6 Pro 21 with Android 7.1.1-- does not, other than if I set streaming to High. Oddly though, some titles that are at FLAC only 24/192 will play on my DAP, altho buffer out due to bad internet--Cream Disraeli Gears, Doors L.A. Woman, ZZ Top Tres Hombres (original, not expanded) play. Curious if anyone with fast internet and under 10 Android with the new Tidal can try those albums and see if they play. However, anything FLAC only 24/96 no go.

And, as you found, there is still MQA in their catalog that my Shanling DAP plays fine if loaded with the new app. For now, I just reverted back to Tidal 2.86 and it performs normally as before.

Anyway, that's a lot of hardware out there that isn't getting the new Tidal functionality. Hopefully someone with a good contact at Tidal can get this info to them, as it seems you've ID'd the issue and provided a possible fix. I'm going to link your post over to the Shanling M6 Pro thread attn: Shanling rep, as he said they're investigating the issue too. Thanks again!

 

[Neweymatt]

2. On another device (RS6, Android 9, Snapdragon 660) I replicated the bug of not being able to play much of anything.

Ouch, does this mean I have a nasty surprise waiting for me if I update Tidal on my RS6 to this version 2.88.1?

 

[peterinvan]

Tidal seems to have updated itself on my FiiO M11 Pro (Android 7.0) to Version 2.87.1.
I am seeing the "Max" icon.
So far I cannot detect any change in sound quality.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Ouch, does this mean I have a nasty surprise waiting for me if I update Tidal on my RS6 to this version 2.88.1?

The last version I could get working on my RS6 was 2.86.0
https://d.apkpure.com/b/APK/com.aspiro.tidal?versionCode=1121

Donwload link on apkpure included above for convenience.

 

[uncletim]

Ouch, does this mean I have a nasty surprise waiting for me if I update Tidal on my RS6 to this version 2.88.1?

my RS6 with 2.88.1 will not play maybe 95% of Max titles. I wonder why a select few play?

This plays, says MAX:

https://tidal.com/browse/album/79724742

 

[BobSmith8901]

my RS6 with 2.88.1 will not play maybe 95% of Max titles. I wonder why a select few play?

This plays, says MAX:

https://tidal.com/browse/album/79724742

As far as I can tell, that album is one of the MQA hold-outs so it'll play with hardware under Android 11. On my Shanling DAP with Android 7.1.1 (unable to process the new Tidal app MAX FLAC like your RS6) I temporarily upgraded to Tidal 2.88XX and tried that album and it played but was showing the MQA 16X unfold to 768kHz in the sample rate readout up top. So, it isn't a straight FLAC file. Hopefully Tidal addresses the incompatibility with under-Android 11 hardware because there's a lot of it out there. Back to 2.86.

 

[UrbanAnimism777]

This is ridiculous. Tidal must know that a big percentage of their customers use DAPs with older Android systems, so they better fix the incompatibility issue ASAP.

 

[BobSmith8901]

This is ridiculous. Tidal must know that a big percentage of their customers use DAPs with older Android systems, so they better fix the incompatibility issue ASAP.

One would hope. That would certainly be a more elegant solution than to leave it to the hardware manufacturers to update their gear to Android 11+. I mean, the latter will never happen, at least on a widespread basis, if at all. So it's on Tidal. I'm hoping that they'll see it as hanging onto subscribers that potentially might be frustrated enough to move to another streamer like Qobuz.

 

[WDitters]

This is ridiculous. Tidal must know that a big percentage of their customers use DAPs with older Android systems, so they better fix the incompatibility issue ASAP.

Unfortunately in the grand scheme of things the number of users that use a DAP for Tidal (or the Hifi-Plus subscription that gives access to resolutions beyond 16/44.1) actually represents a minority for Tidal. Same applies (to a lesser extent) to Qobuz. Tidal will most probably leave it up to the DAP manufacturers to develop updates to newer Android versions. And the fact that players like Naim who never offered Tidal MQA to begin with, but instead show a preference for Qobuz are not really planning on jumping on the Tidal Flac train does not offer much incentive to Tidal to solve this mess. In the end, their user majority sits on platforms that do not have any issue

The whole transition from MQA to FLAC probably has been quite a costly, yet unforeseen excersise for Tidal. I assume they will want to get out of this whole MQA / FLAC mess without on-boarding additional costs...

The impact of this however is further reaching than just DAPs with older android versions. Look at software developers responsible for apps / ecosystems such as ROON, Audirvana, Jriver, UAPP, Hiby Music that offer Tidal high-res access in their software. Only those that do not live of lifetime license fees will have some possibility to recuperate some of the development costs for this.

So in the end I am really curious about the fallout of all of this. Will it make (audiophile) subscribers move to Qobuz or Deezer? Will Spotify choose this moment to drop their Hifi tier into the market? Who knows, but it's bloody interesting to watch