Mar 29, 2025 at 12:16 PM Post #5,251 of 5,260
I do not recall ever hearing crosstalk or intermodulation on any of my single ended amps. I have balanced headphone amps with 4.4mm balanced output, but the benefit is more (usually twice) the power output.
You won’t directly hear crosstalk or intermod distortion (unless they’re really bad). But they can impact intangible things like “resolution,” staging, and imaging.

And yes, while balanced connections often net you twice the output voltage of SE outputs, they also often net you twice the output impedance, which is a big problem if you use low impedance IEMs.
 
Mar 29, 2025 at 7:56 PM Post #5,254 of 5,260
Your perspective will sit quietly on page 350 of this thread, but would akin to tossing a turd into a punchbowl in many arenas, could start a Third World War in a couple. "Stand yer ground", 'Defender !!
Ha ha. Quite the visualization there. For the record I like punch.
 
Apr 21, 2025 at 5:49 PM Post #5,255 of 5,260
Instead of what? What amp are you using now?
I'm currently running a 1979 Technics super-mini system, SE-C01 and SU-C01. It's a little 1/2x1/2x1/2 dimensions pre- and final amp pair, each piece originally $1k, and it does not disappoint as that. I'm just looking at how cheap the Master 9 MK3 is, and wondering what people think that balanced would do VS my current Technics duo.
 
May 3, 2025 at 12:10 AM Post #5,256 of 5,260
In 2025, the the Tidal vanilla win player is glorious with HiRes files (about 15% of their library or 20 mln tracks) but big meehh with 16/44 tracks. The reason is because there is no upsampler and everything goes through windows resampler. I've spent weeks trying to setup some runtime pipeline from tidal to sox or gstreamer but gave up. Nothing works.

So I finally decided f u this client and purchased a downloader, and a free PGGB upsampler. Everything will be 24/192 on disk. Right now playing the upsampled formerly 16/44 with bee audio player and it's pretty good. I hear the degradation compared to the true 24/192 is pretty subtle and acceptable. With the expectation that in a year or two pretty much everything I like will be already HiRes on Tidal, this is a perfect stopgap solution and I think nothing "better" is possible, only "more convenient".

I don't want to pay Audirvana subscription because they don't pay artists. Tidal is paying artists and providing the service for only few bucks more. Audirvana is only playing someone else files and charge for that, won't happen.
 
May 3, 2025 at 1:02 AM Post #5,257 of 5,260
In 2025, the the Tidal vanilla win player is glorious with HiRes files (about 15% of their library or 20 mln tracks) but big meehh with 16/44 tracks. The reason is because there is no upsampler and everything goes through windows resampler. I've spent weeks trying to setup some runtime pipeline from tidal to sox or gstreamer but gave up. Nothing works.

So I finally decided f u this client and purchased a downloader, and a free PGGB upsampler. Everything will be 24/192 on disk. Right now playing the upsampled formerly 16/44 with bee audio player and it's pretty good. I hear the degradation compared to the true 24/192 is pretty subtle and acceptable. With the expectation that in a year or two pretty much everything I like will be already HiRes on Tidal, this is a perfect stopgap solution and I think nothing "better" is possible, only "more convenient".

I don't want to pay Audirvana subscription because they don't pay artists. Tidal is paying artists and providing the service for only few bucks more. Audirvana is only playing someone else files and charge for that, won't happen.
My solution was to get a Roon subscription (it has a full suite of DSP options, including upscaling). I ended up using Roon's many other features more than I expected.
 
May 3, 2025 at 4:20 AM Post #5,258 of 5,260
In 2025, the the Tidal vanilla win player is glorious with HiRes files (about 15% of their library or 20 mln tracks) but big meehh with 16/44 tracks. The reason is because there is no upsampler and everything goes through windows resampler. I've spent weeks trying to setup some runtime pipeline from tidal to sox or gstreamer but gave up. Nothing works.

So I finally decided f u this client and purchased a downloader, and a free PGGB upsampler. Everything will be 24/192 on disk. Right now playing the upsampled formerly 16/44 with bee audio player and it's pretty good. I hear the degradation compared to the true 24/192 is pretty subtle and acceptable. With the expectation that in a year or two pretty much everything I like will be already HiRes on Tidal, this is a perfect stopgap solution and I think nothing "better" is possible, only "more convenient".

I don't want to pay Audirvana subscription because they don't pay artists. Tidal is paying artists and providing the service for only few bucks more. Audirvana is only playing someone else files and charge for that, won't happen.
A few things.

Windows has, for a very long time, used it's Windows Driver Model (WDM) audio components API technology to superseed any app's audio stream.
However, you can give an app 'Exclusivity' to try and mitigate this, by using Exclusive Mode via the audio settings in Windows. Unfortunately, this does not always work correctly.

The better method is to use Windows Audio Session API (WASAPI), Windows own system to bypass it's own audio API kernels and simultaneously give an app exclusivity to use it's audio api instead. This allows for bitperfect performance.
If that causes further issues, you can use Audio Stream I/O (ASIO), the older way to bypass windows audio kernel for bitperfect performance. It's support might be patchy due to WASAPI being the superior method, but ASIO should still work; it's very useful for older audio gear and professional legacy music creation tools.

Finally, you can use free or paid-for software playback frontends that have WASAPI (and or ASIO) compatibility to bypass windows audio API.
HQ Player, Audirvana, J. River Media Player, foobar2000, and more, can be used in this way. Here are some examples:
  • Roon is, currently, the ultimate option for bitperfect bitstreams with streaming services like Tidal x Roon. Bypasses WDM. Upsampling is also available, though some apps have better DSD upsampling algorithms (HQ Player and Audirvana.com).
  • foobar2000 is the most famous (with setup and customisation on your end, including WASAPI and/or ASIO add-on's) and completely free, open-source media player, but other players exist too. Some add-on's can allow DSD bitstream too.
  • J.River Media Centre is a paid for software. It is a very powerful Windows music player and has both WASAPI and ASIO support. It can also support bitstream DSD. One of its more useful features is direct integration with streaming services, including Tidal. Originally, this was one of the best, most consistent, ways to bitstream Tidal bitperfectly, but Tidal has improved it's app years ago to allow bitperfect playback (in the settings). Where J. River Media Centre becomes favourable is Tidal integration, bypass WDM, and allow upsampling if you wish.
  • HQ Player is, possibly, the most powerful upsampling software, with its algorithms very well lauded for DSD upsampling. That DSD upsampling is especially good on gear that have great hardware DSD engines (T+A, LAiV, or Holo May DAC's, for example).

Once you have overridden WDM, you can now have control to do either bitperfect native playback or oversampling, or other changes, to the audio stream without Windows adding it's own changes.
As earlier mentioned, Tidal can play through certain apps, making it easier to do either bitperfect playback or upsampling without WDM interfering. J. River Media Centre is the one of the better options in my opinion, but Roon is certainly more attractive if you have multiple devices or want more features.
Another, and more complicated, way to integrate Tidal into another playback software is via foobar2000 itself (use this guide as an example).

Hope this brief, into bitstream playback and streaming apps, helps you and others!

Edit: forgot to add Roon, my bad! Amended.
 
Last edited:
May 3, 2025 at 10:38 AM Post #5,259 of 5,260
@TheOneInYellow that was a perfect summary and hopefully will help many people on this thread.
As for me, indeed I was using the Wasapi Exclusive mode with Tidal for many years and it sounded great. I think the supercomboburrito in the DAC is doing its own upsampling and fitering pretty well, even on HiRes material I prefer it to the NOS mode. I do recommend everyone the exclusive mode if the speakers like it.
What changed? I've built my own DIY speakers and went into rabbit hole speakers measurements. Whatever I did, I was only capable of making my speakers passive crossover either distortion free or flat, not both. So I went distortion free route, and while my speakers sound in the $2k grade in exclusive mode they produce really high end sound if treated with Equalizer APO. This is my frequency curve after EAPO treatment:

eq.jpg


This curve sounds a lot better than the exclusive mode, imagine this a sealed box with good dampening, not ported. In general I recommend everyone to spend $25 on a microphone and see if you can get a curve like above.
So the transition from the happy exclusive world to the perils of the Windows sound layer is going hard. Jriver suggested above indeed sounds great with 16/44 material (it's using sox upsampler) but completely fails with 24/96 and 24/192. I've searched online and apparently people reported to JRiver that it cannot play 24/192 8 years ago and it's still not fixed. With this attitude, I see no hope in them.
I've spent weeks trying to build a pipeline Tidal -> virtual cable -> Sox or gstreamer but I failed to bypass the windows upsampler in any permutation. I did not find a way to stream to foobar2000 or HQPlayer (won't buy anyway). Audirvana would be a perfect solution but I don't want to pay for the subscription, as explained yesterday.
So my final solution is to give up on streaming and go full offline. I am very happy with offline PGGB blaster upsampler so far. I really feel that any intermediate format like 24/44 or 16/48 is upsampled to something practically identical to the original 24/96. The 16/44 upsampling still doesn't sound on par with original HiRes, the information is lost, but I think they sound better than playing directly from Tidal. At least I think I squeezed the max of what could be done with Tidal in terms of sound.
 
May 3, 2025 at 2:18 PM Post #5,260 of 5,260
@TheOneInYellow that was a perfect summary and hopefully will help many people on this thread.
Thank you kindly 😊
I don't often post, but on occasion I do present my wisdom and experience that I have gleaned (or percolated) over years in the hobby, and try to explain topics that I was once taught or knew as common knowledge 5 - 10 years ago, explain specific information regarding technology that may still be misunderstood, or shut down misinformation (whether innocently made or deliberately presented).
I try my best to be civil, clear, and informative, but also summarise difficult topics, and link sources wherever necessary. I don't want to overload people either unless it's ongoing conversations, because, unfortunately, audio is extremely complicated in science (especially maths), standards, terminology, setup, equipment, and usage.
I am so very thankful that we live in an age where we really can have insanely good audio reproduction at almost any price, and that engineering feats happen at both the summit fir and budget ends of the market too.

I do hope my post on understanding how to implement playback frontends on a Windows computer helps, and should have enough information for readers to further delve into the nuances should they wish to (or just download/pay for software that takes the hard work out 😅).

As for me, indeed I was using the Wasapi Exclusive mode with Tidal for many years and it sounded great. I think the supercomboburrito in the DAC is doing its own upsampling and fitering pretty well, even on HiRes material I prefer it to the NOS mode. I do recommend everyone the exclusive mode if the speakers like it.
What changed? I've built my own DIY speakers and went into rabbit hole speakers measurements. Whatever I did, I was only capable of making my speakers passive crossover either distortion free or flat, not both. So I went distortion free route, and while my speakers sound in the $2k grade in exclusive mode they produce really high end sound if treated with Equalizer APO. This is my frequency curve after EAPO treatment:



This curve sounds a lot better than the exclusive mode, imagine this a sealed box with good dampening, not ported. In general I recommend everyone to spend $25 on a microphone and see if you can get a curve like above.
So the transition from the happy exclusive world to the perils of the Windows sound layer is going hard. Jriver suggested above indeed sounds great with 16/44 material (it's using sox upsampler) but completely fails with 24/96 and 24/192. I've searched online and apparently people reported to JRiver that it cannot play 24/192 8 years ago and it's still not fixed. With this attitude, I see no hope in them.
I've spent weeks trying to build a pipeline Tidal -> virtual cable -> Sox or gstreamer but I failed to bypass the windows upsampler in any permutation. I did not find a way to stream to foobar2000 or HQPlayer (won't buy anyway). Audirvana would be a perfect solution but I don't want to pay for the subscription, as explained yesterday.
So my final solution is to give up on streaming and go full offline. I am very happy with offline PGGB blaster upsampler so far. I really feel that any intermediate format like 24/44 or 16/48 is upsampled to something practically identical to the original 24/96. The 16/44 upsampling still doesn't sound on par with original HiRes, the information is lost, but I think they sound better than playing directly from Tidal. At least I think I squeezed the max of what could be done with Tidal in terms of sound.

That's the thing about most DAC's; they are doing more than just converting a digital signal into an analogue signal. There is filtering, noise shaping, multiple conversions within the digital space, clocking, and then oversampling or non-oversampling depending on function selected, and all at the same time as the actual conversion to analogue. Add to this all the individual mathematic algorithms too, including bit mapping and other decoding areas.
Not to mention, clean power and power reserves are key for the best performing DAC systems, which used to be exclusive to summit-fi, but thankfully we can have larger portions of the end-game at more affordable or reasonably priced products (case in point: Holo Audio May KTE and Cyan, LAiV Harmony DAC, T+A D200 and H200, Soulnote D1 and D2, etc).

The last thing you want is a system you have no control over implementing itself unwarranted between your source and your chosen DAC, such as Windows Driver Model, which adds it's own algorithms to the mixture for its purposes. You want the DAC to do the most work.

Alternatively, you can have a way to split DAC functionality too, so have all the filtering, noise shaping, etc, done by one system (Digital to Digital conversion or DDC), and the analogue conversion by another (Digital to Analogue conversion or DAC).
This can be seen in both AKM's TOTL DAC solution AK4191 + AK4499EX, where their SoC's are split into two chips (AK4191= DDC, AK4499EX= DAC). We can also see this idea of splitting functions in both affordable and expensive transports (Rose HiFi streamers only, Soulnote Z3, dCS Varèse, for example). They split the workload for the purposes of pushing each system, digital to digital and digital to analogue, for best performance.
Of course, this can be expensive, but it is an option. Most well made DAC's are affordable in general, and we are getting competently made high-end equipment much cheaper no than ever, whilst (some) summit-fi gear still push technological and engineering limits but at cost.

My advice for you, then, to bypass the Windows audio kernal for your playback system is to, potentially, consider using Roon, as that seems to be the most foolproof and somewhat affordable, with usefulness beyond a PC system. This may not be what you want to hear, but if foobar2000 and other solutions did not work for streaming, then Roon could be the alternative prior to full offline mode.
Or, consider purchasing a well-priced DAP with good streaming; many companies either using Android or in-house OS have workarounds to make sure their apps are bitperfect (even in stock or customised Android OS). For example, the Android app USB Audio Player Pro (UAPP; Google Play Store link here) is able to play Tidal and Qobuz streaming platforms bitperfectly in Android, and has extensive setup options for a curated experience. Tidal Android App is also, supposed to be, bit perfect as well within Android.
Using a DAP (custom OS or Android OS) or an Android desktop solution with good line-out voltage output into a preamplifier, or good variable voltage output if you want to skip a preamp, can mitigate the issues of using a Windows system.

You can also consider affordable dedicated streaming DAC's, streaming amplifiers, or transport-only equipment instead, from such brands as Eversolo, Rose HiFi, WiiM, iFi Audio, Audiolab, Arcam, Cambridge Audio, and many more. They can take out all this headache at once, provided you are happy with their internal tech.

Of course, these are just suggestions, but areas that can give you both streaming capabilities and offline support without the hassle of using Windows.
As much as I personally do not enjoy using Apple systems (I do not hate their products, I am just too used to Windows and Android), Apple Mac systems are better optimised for audio playback due to their professional use in the audio and video industries, so this is also a workaround too.

Streaming via Windows can work, but you also need to work in order to understand how (this is a general statement to everyone and not specific). Sometimes, it can be too much, or have unnecessary costs involved.
It is also why I no longer use Windows whatsoever; I use my FiiO M17 digital desktop player so I can wash my hands of Windows irritation 😂! I stream Tidal via it's app or via UAPP, or use the FiiO Music Player; I have my bitperfect or oversampling options, and not be limited in voltage output or current when using DC mode whilst bypassing the internal battery.
(I will very likely upgrade to the upcoming FiiO M27 too based of my experience with the M17).
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top