[Almoxil]

I, for one, don't listen to numbers... only music.

After all, if speaker systems and all that high end stuff you've been obsessed with for decades are so perfect, why are you trying "poor-man" headphones in the first place?

 

[Epicfailman]

That is a shame that you couldn't find a good pair of headphones. I personally can't believe what I was missing before I stumbled on this community.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Even the DT48!!!!!! Oooooohhhhhh the agony..Wink.

 

[BHTX]

Hi..

I agree with many of the responses here so far, at least partially. I wish I could respond to them all, but they're popping up so fast it's tough, lol.

True, loudspeakers are all "flawed" as well, but not like THIS. I do agree that headphones can still be very enjoyable at times, and often more "intimate" than any loudspeaker. And yes, it's really about enjoyment, not how true something seems to be to a recording. However, they're all so different with pronounced flaws that I often find it difficult to enjoy them. For instance, right now.. the pronounced top end on these HD600's are giving the highs a sense of poking me in the eye. It's a very similar feeling to that of a poorly implemented tweeter.

Yes, everything adds its own color, loudspeakers certainly included. But like I said, it's just not as bad as any headphone I've ever tried. It's like this.. with speakers, the room and distance are a problem. With headphones, it's the headphones themselves, and the way they interact with your ears (and of course, each person's ears are different). As far as any sense of accuracy goes, it's not that difficult to do with near field monitors. Even a single 4" driver in the near field can work well (along with something else to help with the low frequencies).

And no, I don't have OCD, lol. Funny you say that though, as I know a couple people who do. Horrible condition to have to deal with! I can understand your reasons for saying that though, as OCD often makes everything so difficult. It's really not like that for me though. I just want a decently accurate set of headphones that are easier for me to enjoy, without highs poking me in the face and worsening my tinnitus, mids shouting at me, or over-emphasized midbass. That's all. But with headphones, it seems impossible.

 

[userlander]

Maybe headphone makers just haven't caught up to the idea of neutral accuracy? They seem to be more focused on what they think "sounds right," their own house sound, etc. than on making them accurate.

I was frustrated at first too, because coming from the standpoint of more neutral speakers I couldn't find any headphones that really seemed neutral. They all seem to artificially boost or lower certain frequencies, sometimes seemingly just at random. The K601s seemed like the closest to me, but it's hard to tell exactly without the kind of gear and software you mention.

I might be wrong, but I think also that some freqs with headphones have to be lowered artificially anyway b/c of the proximity of the driver to the ear, or else they would sound *really* out of whack. So headphones are maybe not inherently neutral anyway, and perhaps the lack of perceived neutrality is actually the designer's failed attempt to make it sound at least subjectively accurate. Or else perhaps most headphone makers just don't appreciate or care about the concept of neutrality and are trying to make the headphone have a particular "sound." Unfortunately that might be one that sounds good to them, but that doesn't always translate to sounding better to everyone.

It seems then that maybe the goal with headphones is to try to get a phone you can deal with that is the closest to neutral *for you.* When you want more accuracy, maybe you just have to listen to speakers and learn to live with the limitations that seem to exist in most headphones - or else design your own. There would probably be a market for a truly neutral headphone, or maybe it actually wouldn't sound that good at all for all kinds of complex reasons that are beyond me, psychoacoustics, etc. Interesting thread, though.

 

[Miths]

I personally thought the thing about being obsessed with audio reproduction since he was two, was quite entertaining. I guess I can't rule out he's one those rare child prodigies who can play the violin or write down Pi with two hundred decimals at the age of three (hell, personally I can't even remember anything at all from before I was five or six), but otherwise I'm guessing the audio reproduction in question must be beginning to learn to talk and things like banging random toys together?

Anyway, I certainly don't have neither the ears nor the knowledge to question the rest of his statements, but this definitely sound a bit like some "specialized" sort of OCD or something - otherwise I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing how less than neutral frequency response graphs should make it completely impossible and unenjoyable to listen an audio reproduction device?
But in any case, good luck with your speakers - it sounds like you should just give up on headphones entirely.

 

[tenzip]

To the OP, what kind of system and loudspeakers do you use? I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with them, just curious.

I personally find it unfortunate that you aren't able to enjoy headphones. Hopefully you are in a situation most of the time where you're able to use loudspeakers to get what you are looking for.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by userlander /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe headphone makers just haven't caught up to the idea of neutral accuracy? They seem to be more focused on what they think "sounds right," their own house sound, etc. than on making them accurate. I was frustrated at first too, because coming from the standpoint of more neutral speakers I couldn't find any headphones that really seemed neutral. They all seem to artificially boost or lower certain frequencies, sometimes seemingly just at random. The K601s seemed like the closest to me, but it's hard to tell exactly without the kind of gear and software you mention. I might be wrong, but I think also that some freqs with headphones have to be lowered artificially b/c of the proximity of the driver to the ear or else it would sound *really* out of whack. So headphones are maybe not inherently neutral anyway, and perhaps the lack of neutrality is the designer's failed attempt to make it sound at least subjectively accurate. Or else perhaps most headphone makers just don't appreciate or care about the concept of neutrality and are trying to make the headphone have a particular "sound." Unfortunately that might be one that sounds good to them, but that doesn't always translate to sounding better to everyone. It seems then that maybe the goal with headphones is to try to get a phone you can deal with that is the closest to neutral *for you.* When you want total accuracy, maybe you just have to listen to speakers and learn to live with the limitations that seem to exist in most headphones - or else design your own. There would probably be a market for a truly neutral headphone, or maybe it actually wouldn't sound that good at all for all kinds of complex reasons that are beyond me, psychoacoustics, etc.

Headphones like the DT48 are made to be dead neutral and 'accurate.' But they were not made for the audiophile in mind, or the consumer market.. If accuracy if based on a flat response, then the DT48 are accurate.. But again, was the music colored? Studio? Venue? How about we say, more neutral or accurate then other headphones, so theres no absolute about accuracy.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Headphones like the DT48 are made to be dead neutral and 'accurate.' But they were not made for the audiophile in mind, or the consumer market.. If accuracy if based on a flat response, then the DT48 are accurate.. But again, was the music colored? Studio? Venue? How about we say, more neutral or accurate then other headphones, so theres no absolute about accuracy.

Exactly, there are so many factors involved. That's what I was trying to get at with comments about the designers trying to make them sound subjectively accurate, or else have a particular sound, etc.

Thanks for that about the DT48, I'd be curious to hear those.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by userlander /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe headphone makers just haven't caught up to the idea of neutral accuracy? They seem to be more focused on what they think "sounds right," their own house sound, etc. than on making them accurate. I was frustrated at first too, because coming from the standpoint of more neutral speakers I couldn't find any headphones that really seemed neutral. They all seem to artificially boost or lower certain frequencies, sometimes seemingly just at random. The K601s seemed like the closest to me, but it's hard to tell exactly without the kind of gear and software you mention. I might be wrong, but I think also that some freqs with headphones have to be lowered artificially anyway b/c of the proximity of the driver to the ear, or else they would sound *really* out of whack. So headphones are maybe not inherently neutral anyway, and perhaps the lack of perceived neutrality is actually the designer's failed attempt to make it sound at least subjectively accurate. Or else perhaps most headphone makers just don't appreciate or care about the concept of neutrality and are trying to make the headphone have a particular "sound." Unfortunately that might be one that sounds good to them, but that doesn't always translate to sounding better to everyone. It seems then that maybe the goal with headphones is to try to get a phone you can deal with that is the closest to neutral *for you.* When you want more accuracy, maybe you just have to listen to speakers and learn to live with the limitations that seem to exist in most headphones - or else design your own. There would probably be a market for a truly neutral headphone, or maybe it actually wouldn't sound that good at all for all kinds of complex reasons that are beyond me, psychoacoustics, etc. Interesting thread, though.

There will always be a spatial difference. Consumer headphones are marketed towards audiophiles cause they are meant to sound pleasing. That is the number 1 priority. Then you have headphones for the pro market which focus' more on being neutral and accurate. These are geared towards a very small audience..240DF/DT48/CD900ST/ P10 etc..

 

[moonboy403]

Now it goes back to the perceived neutrality and actual flat FR graph. They are two different animals. The OP doesn't seem to realize it. For headphones, if the FR is a flat line across, it'll sound like crap and totally out of whack. If you have a headphone that sounds the same as a loudspeaker that has a flat FR, the FR of the headphone is anything BUT flat.

 

[freakydrew]

sorry for your frustrations....

feel like giving your stuff away as some sort of final act...if so pm me...
j/k
sort of

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by freakydrew /img/forum/go_quote.gif sorry for your frustrations.... feel like giving your stuff away as some sort of final act...if so pm me... j/k sort of

 

[Uncle Erik]

No flames here. Why don't you stick around? You seem to know what you're talking about - the board needs more people like you.

Yeah, most headphones are colored. I think that's because that's what consumers expect to hear and what they'll spend money on, which is the ultimate reason anything gets made.

Just curious, have you given a listen to the Beyerdynamic DT48? It's a cult favorite (for two or three of us

) that's one of the best transducers I've listened to. A lot of recent purchasers have been unhappy with it, mostly because it doesn't sound like anything else and has "no bass" even though it produces the notes. From what I've read and experienced, it seems very flat and neutral. It reminds me of the Quads and homemade ribbons I built - both of which measure flat.

Also, I'd really like to know which speakers you enjoy. Anyhow, I'd like to see you participate here - you could add needed balance.

 

[Makenshi]

this is wayyyy too long so I didn't bother reading much after the initial post.

For what my opinion is worth, I think part of it might be your ears and not the headphone (or maybe my POS onboard soundcards). I tried the testing method with sinegen and pink noise, and ALL of my headphones have a mild peak in the 6-8k region (~6-8db) and a HUGE peak between 11-13k (10+). However, when I actually listen to music unEQed, though, I find that they don't really bother me as much as the tests suggest. Sure, I still apply the VST sometimes, but I find a lot of music sounding fuller and totally fine unEQed.

That's my $0.02, for what it's worth

Your third paragraph just looks like bait though

If you don't want your HD600s anymore you can always give them to me