[Donald North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just received a pair of HD600's the other day, and I'm extremely disappointed, to say the least. I've also realized that there's no such thing as a headphone that's anywhere near accurate. These HD600's are no exception. I bought them as a result of YEARS of browsing the net (mainly this forum). I just knew they'd be the headphone for me. However, their frequency response is so terrible I find them tough to listen to, sometimes unbearable. They're beyond EQ'ing (even with Electri-Q VST plugin, which I had to use for years to make my worn out HD497's the least bit tolerable) because the response is so peaky in so many areas. By the time you've removed the most troublesome areas, there's nothing left. Upon using a combination of pink noise and a software based sinewave generator, I've observed the following: a broadband peak centered around 3.8 KHz (quickly begins rising at 2.5 KHz), a peak centered around 5.2 KHz, a peak at 6 KHz, another at 7 KHz, rising response at 10 KHz, and a huge peak at 12 KHz, along with much of the remaining highs being too much, until it very quickly drops off very steeply to almost nothing at 15 KHz. On top of the usual upper-midrange and treble mess, there's also a broadband increase in response somewhere around 1-1.5 KHz, maybe 500 Hz, 100 Hz (which I find particularly bothersome, and it also seems to be very common among full-size headphones. I think this is the result of the headphone driver's Fs [free-air resonant frequency, or the resonant freq of the headphone as a whole if it's a closed headphone]).. it's somewhat difficult to tell because the entire midbass is boosted about 4-5 dB (which also seems to be the case with almost ALL headphones). Below this, the lower frequencies quickly become less and less until they steeply fall off below 30 Hz. All of these things I've mentioned are only the most problematic areas, the entire response is a complete mess. It's extremely difficult to even pinpoint them because there's too many of them too close together.

How did you measure these headphones? With what equipment? Was the headphone free air? Were you using a KEMAR artificial ear or head and torso simulator?

Have you measured the frequency response of a pair of loudspeakers in room? That's not a pretty sight either.

 

[mbd2884]

I wonder if he even listens to music or understand music isn't about perfection but the message, emotion or just an idea the artist is trying to convey. So for me, I see no reason why this perfection and accuracy is even pertinent to me enjoying my music.

That and I certainly can't hear these peaks and what nots. And obvious to me the OP couldn't either without using software to analyze the pink noise. Good for the OP, he can decipher pink noise with his EQ software.

 

[BHTX]

I realize the 3rd paragraph seems like BS, and I knew it as I was typing it. I was just trying to get a point across that I wasn't just bashing headphones to be doing it, or that I didn't know what I was talking about. This entire headphone thing really has disappointed me, and it's gotten frustrating. I also want to apologize if I offended anyone, as that wasn't my intention. I'm just in a moment of distress here with this headphone situation.. I currently have 4 pairs I'll be selling in the near future, along with a bunch of other audio equipment. I'm at the point of just throwing my hands up, you know?

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder if he even listens to music or understand music isn't about perfection but the message, emotion or just an idea the artist is trying to convey. So for me, I see no reason why this perfection and accuracy is even pertinent to me enjoying my music. That and I certainly can't hear these peaks and what nots. And obvious to me the OP couldn't either without using software to analyze the pink noise. Good for the OP, he can decipher pink noise with his EQ software.

True, music isn't about perfection. However, I personally require a certain level of neutrality in regards to what I'm listening to music with for me to enjoy it to its fullest, especially considering the money involved. If this was a $20 clock radio, it'd be different.

You can't hear them because there's so many, and you've grown accustomed to it, likely within minutes of putting the headphones on for the first time.

Yes, it isn't difficult to identify peaks in frequency response with pink noise.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now it goes back to the perceived neutrality and actual flat FR graph. They are two different animals. The OP doesn't seem to realize it. For headphones, if the FR is a flat line across, it'll sound like crap and totally out of whack. If you have a headphone that sounds the same as a loudspeaker that has a flat FR, the FR of the headphone is anything BUT flat.

Sure, subjective perceived neutrality at first listen to music can differ from actual frequency response. And yes, if a headphone could be measured as flat in a room, it wouldn't be flat at the ear. And this is the problem with headphones. What's flat? Apparently, no one knows, and if they do, they're not willing to tell anyone.

 

[Dublo7]

I think you're too fussy. But that's just me.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif For what my opinion is worth, I think part of it might be your ears and not the headphone (or maybe my POS onboard soundcards). I tried the testing method with sinegen and pink noise, and ALL of my headphones have a mild peak in the 6-8k region (~6-8db) and a HUGE peak between 11-13k (10+).

Yep, all ears are shaped differently. I've tried more than one soundcard, one of which I tested beforehand (and not with just my ears!..lol). The results were all the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, when I actually listen to music unEQed, though, I find that they don't really bother me as much as the tests suggest. Sure, I still apply the VST sometimes, but I find a lot of music sounding fuller and totally fine unEQed.

Wish I could say the same.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif How did you measure these headphones? With what equipment? Was the headphone free air? Were you using a KEMAR artificial ear or head and torso simulator?

No need to measure headphones to get the general idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have you measured the frequency response of a pair of loudspeakers in room? That's not a pretty sight either.

Of course I have, usually my own. The resulting measurements greatly depend on the methods used and the gating, etc.

 

[Markj]

It might be some kind of anatomical condition. Some people with inner ear or sinus malformation can't hear headphone sound like most people. Direct contact with skull can cause this. But speakers will sound just normal as other sounds . Some electrostatic speaker headphones might produce more normal results.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sure, subjective perceived neutrality at first listen to music can differ from actual frequency response. And yes, if a headphone could be measured as flat in a room, it wouldn't be flat at the ear. And this is the problem with headphones. What's flat? Apparently, no one knows, and if they do, they're not willing to tell anyone.

Then you just have to EQ your headphone so it sounds flat relative to a speaker that you believe is flat. Just because there is no official rule of thumb of FR flatness like speakers doesn't mean you can't achieve what you want.

It seems to be that you're bothered more by the sight of the FR graphs than the actual sound.

 

[Donald North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif No need to measure headphones to get the general idea.

What general idea? You need to isolate the playback mechanism components and measure them if you want to understand their individual behavior.

If you want to objectively test their behavior you need to measure them in situ with a Head And Torso Simulator.

How We Test - Reviews - Reviews of Headphones and Headphone Ratings - HeadphoneInfo.com

The transducers themselves, being so small, usually have very good behavior with a smooth frequency response. Many of the peaks and dips are due to reflections between the headphone and your ear/head as well as the contouring created by your outer ear and ear canal.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then you just have to EQ your headphone so it sounds flat relative to a speaker that you believe is flat. Just because there is no official rule of thumb of FR flatness like speakers doesn't mean you can't achieve what you want. It seems to be that you're bothered more by the sight of the FR graphs than the actual sound.

EQ'ing them is nearly impossible. A couple of the most bothersome things can be alleviated to an extent, but it only gets worse after that.

Nah, haven't even seen a graph of these. If you're talking about the graphs on the headroom page, I don't pay much attention to them anymore. I'm sure they're smoothed to hell, wouldn't doubt it if they'd even been manually modified to seem more appealing. And if I didn't constantly hear the same problems with music that I hear with pink noise, test tones, and frequency sweeps.. it really wouldn't bother me the least bit. But that's just not the case. I think most people just don't notice it so much. I wish I didn't, lol.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif The transducers themselves, being so small, usually have very good behavior with a smooth frequency response. Many of the peaks and dips are due to reflections between the headphone and your ear/head as well as the contouring created by your outer ear and ear canal.

I thought this might be the case.. until I took them off, removed one of them, and set it up a few feet from me. I didn't measure it, but most of the same problems were noticeable. I don't doubt specific ears contours are a large contributing factor though.

 

[abellaw]

I dont know enough about sound engineering to know how accurate or neutral my headphones are quantitatively. However i do know that i really enjoy the sounds that my headphones produce. I am far from an audiophile and just like to enjoy my music.

However stick around i am sure that there is a headphone out there that better suits what you are looking for. And just let me know if you want to sell those HD-600s lol

 

[donunus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just received a pair of HD600's the other day, and I'm extremely disappointed, to say the least. I've also realized that there's no such thing as a headphone that's anywhere near accurate. These HD600's are no exception. I bought them as a result of YEARS of browsing the net (mainly this forum). I just knew they'd be the headphone for me. However, their frequency response is so terrible I find them tough to listen to, sometimes unbearable. They're beyond EQ'ing (even with Electri-Q VST plugin, which I had to use for years to make my worn out HD497's the least bit tolerable) because the response is so peaky in so many areas. By the time you've removed the most troublesome areas, there's nothing left. Upon using a combination of pink noise and a software based sinewave generator, I've observed the following: a broadband peak centered around 3.8 KHz (quickly begins rising at 2.5 KHz), a peak centered around 5.2 KHz, a peak at 6 KHz, another at 7 KHz, rising response at 10 KHz, and a huge peak at 12 KHz, along with much of the remaining highs being too much, until it very quickly drops off very steeply to almost nothing at 15 KHz. On top of the usual upper-midrange and treble mess, there's also a broadband increase in response somewhere around 1-1.5 KHz, maybe 500 Hz, 100 Hz (which I find particularly bothersome, and it also seems to be very common among full-size headphones. I think this is the result of the headphone driver's Fs [free-air resonant frequency, or the resonant freq of the headphone as a whole if it's a closed headphone]).. it's somewhat difficult to tell because the entire midbass is boosted about 4-5 dB (which also seems to be the case with almost ALL headphones). Below this, the lower frequencies quickly become less and less until they steeply fall off below 30 Hz. All of these things I've mentioned are only the most problematic areas, the entire response is a complete mess. It's extremely difficult to even pinpoint them because there's too many of them too close together. I also want to make it clear once again that ALL headphones are like this, just in different areas. In fact, most seem to be even more bothersome than the HD600's. Like I said, it seems as though there's no such thing as a decent headphone. All the music you're hearing from your 'cans' is simply a mixture of so many peaks and dips that it often becomes unnoticable to the vast majority of consumers. However, I notice every bit of it, with every note that comes through these headphones, or any pair. My old HD497's were like this (highs were untolerable and most noticeable), and the same goes with AKG K701's, K601's, Beyerdynamic DT770's (disgusting!.. bass was unbearable), some older Koss, etc etc.. eveything I've ever tried. Therefore, I think it'd be very reasonable to assume that there's no such thing as a headphone with decent accuracy. They're ALL extremely "colored". I realize that most of this forum will probably be tempted to flame me and tell me I'm crazy or that I don't know what I'm talking about. However, I'll just go ahead and say that I've been into loudspeaker design for decades, and an audio fanatic since before I was old enough to walk. Audio reproduction is an obsession I've always had, ever since I can remember (2 years old?). I've owned much more than my fair share of audio equipment, designed several pairs of loudspeakers, built a couple of amplifiers, spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years, etc. I know what I'm doing, and what I've said is true. I also think this is very valuable information, and I can only wish it would have been explained to me long ago, as it obviously would have saved me a lot of money and trouble. This headphone thing is a bit of a joke. You've all fallen for it, and so did I. The only difference is that I recognized it immediately, and you don't notice it like I do. When I first came across this forum, the first thing I noticed was that most people here aren't very knowledgeable about audio reproduction in general (even all the regulars who own dozens of pairs of headphones). All I can say is.. instead of being so quick to say I'm wrong about anything I've said here, you should all be VERY glad that you're all so unaware, and that your headphones don't bother you like they bother me. I might have a go at IEM's, but I'm not holding my breath. It's my only hope though. And no, it's not my equipment, lol. While there are noticeable differences between DAC's and amplification, it's not huge, although differences do seem to be more apparent with headphones than loudspeakers. Also, output impedance seems to vary quite a bit between headphone amplifiers. But no, equipment isn't my problem. And if you've been tempted to say that it is, you've obviously only fallen victim to that BS as well.. Enjoy yourselves. I give up.

I agree all headphones are colored which is why ive been buying and selling all the time settling for some longer because I can live with their colorations more than the others