[Nostoi]

I didn't receive Tsuranagi yet ups decided to take it for a spin this weekend xD. (They delayed the shipping....)

UPS always struck me as having the finest taste, so this does not surprise me. Though it does disappoint me.

 

[ranfan]

'How the artist intended' is a SCAM! Don't fall for it!

If Jay-Z uses a pair of $80,000 PMC Reference Monitors in his home studio to create his music, because he is a billionaire and he can, would you want to invest the same amount of money in the exact same setup to listen to his music just because 'that's what the artist uses'? Suggestion - you shouldn't!

99% of the time the artists/producers/engineers work towards and pray that their mixes translate well to $20 pair average earphones because that's what most of the people in the world use to listen to music. If your mixes sound great on cheap crap products, they will definitely sound great on well tuned products. This is the kind of mentality most pros run with. Otherwise, everything the artists, producers or audio engineers use are 'tools of the trade', stuff we need to make stuff happen! Sure some of us use high end monitors from brands like ADAM, Dynaudio, Genelec, ATC, Focal, etc and some still use the trusty old Yamaha NS10s either as their main monitors or to cross-reference, even top mixing engineers like Chris Lord Alge. Most of us also have a pair of small crappy $50-100 speakers on our studio tables to cross-check our mixes on.

With that said, I'd like to add and clarify is that it's not all random and there is a lot of testing and calibration that goes on behind the scenes in the Pro-World (crazy amounts) - studio construction, room treatment, monitor placement and calibration, sub-woofer calibration, overall calibration after everything is setup, sometimes THX and Dolby certifications after it all - everything is extremely well set up and calibrated! I'm talking about the proper professional scene, not amateurs with a pair of speakers trying to mix their sister's album. But you know, even some of those kids producing their music in their bedroom studios go on to win Grammys because all you really need is talent to make stuff happen with what you have and you can always hire proper professionals for what you don't. #BillieEilish #Finneas. Even though Billie Eilish's first record was recorded in the drawing room of their parent's house, it was then mixed by Rob Kinelski in his pro studio and then mastered by John Greenham at Clearlight Mastering. But yeah, you don't really need a million dollar studio to make music anymore!

GOOD STUFF does help us do our jobs better and quicker because time is money and that is why you'll see professionals investing good amount of money in the good stuff! Good monitors are generally tuned flatter, cleaner, have higher resolution and sound better but even after all that money on gear, a lot of us still use $300 software like Sonarworks Reference to remove the last bit of room colouration to have everything sounding perfect. Oh and the good stuff doesn't need to be gut punching expensive! Near Field monitors like Genelic 8010As are nothing compared to how much far-field ATCs, BMCs or Ocean Way monitors cost or even compared to TOTL IEMs here like the Aroma Jewel and Oriolus Trailli.

Another thing, it is actually much easier to mix on Near Field monitors and Far Field monitors are primarily used for cross referencing and in fact mainly to blow the artist's mind with the sheer amount of volume when they're first invited into the studio to listen to the final mix. That way they are impressed right off the bat and don't ask for a zillion mix changes and corrections! True story, not kidding! It's the well informed, knowledgable artists that request using Near Fields first and then cross reference on Far Fields to see how the mix will work at louder volumes and on bigger speakers. Most times in case of top leading artists, it's the artist who has the last say on the final mix, not the producer or the audio engineer. Producers and engineers are hired hands brought on the project to help the artists deliver his art. But you should remember that it's the artist's art and he is the main money maker for all the personnel involved!

Now coming to us as listeners - Songs are mixed and mastered to translate well on a multitude of setups and you don't need that exact same gear the production team used in order to hear the music how the artist intended his song to sound! Producers and mixing engineers cross-reference the mix on a multitude of setups just to make sure what they send to the mastering engineer is already great. Then the mastering engineer has world class EARS and setup to know what to do to make stuff translate well right off the bat. That's what mastering is - it's the last stage of production where the primary task is to make sure the mix translates well to most setups and hit industry standard loudness levels. Just FYI, most of the top Mastering engineers master 2-3 albums in a day while the top Mixing engineers mix a song in a day or two.

As a listener, you can choose to use flat speakers, maybe add in a nice sub-woofer and calibrate them to play all FR regions evenly = which is what FLAT technically is. If you like coloured speakers that enhance bass and treble, sure, go for it! If one likes neutrally tuned IEMs/headphones to versions of well established target curves like Etymotic DF or Harman, great! Or if you like coloured IEMs/headphones that presents songs with a larger than life presentation, like you're listening to them in a concert arena, maybe even the Royal Albert Hall (lol!), that's great too! Why not have all of them for different moods!

In the end, it's all good if you like what you're hearing! Who cares what the artist, producer or audio engineer uses! 99% of the times we can't even find out what they use and most of the artists probably just use Airpods to listen to music most of the time anyway.

Here's another attempt to clear some misconceptions -

• A song with a well done mix & master will translate well to most well-tuned products - neutral or slightly coloured, considering the product is well tuned and well balanced without straying too far away into wonky category.
• A well tuned transducer will play all genres well! Equally well or not is a subjective preference based on what you want out of your transducer; some like more bass, some less pinna gain while others more treble.
• A 'Reference' tuned product does not equal bright and devoid of bass. That is Beyerdynamic's definition of Reference for some of their products and it is absolutely wrong! Lol!
• Reference tuning primarily indicates a good neutral balance but mostly means that the product was tuned using a 'reference target curve', whatever that target curve may be - an in-house reference target curve or one of the popular ones like DF, FF or Harman. What all brands claiming their products to be 'Reference' should do is state the target curve they used to tune their product and show how cleanly their products follow it or not. It's the job of the listener to be well informed, know what the target curve is and how it sounds - as it can help give one an educated idea of how something will sound before they can get their hands on it.
• Reference does not mean boring or life less. Actually it's supposed to be the other way around, quite 'life-like', especially if they're emulating 'well tuned speakers in a great room' kind of tuning! Whether you like more colour on top of that or not is where preferences kick in.
• Coloured and reference tunings both can be a lot of fun! I get goosebumps when I hear a song in a well done reference IEM sounding like it sounds on my speakers. I love the overall accuracy, especially the accurate tonal presentation of the instruments. But I also love when some IEMs give me the illusion of standing in a big concert arena and the bass making my heart pound to beat of the kick drum.
• It really depends on one's preferences what one likes and enjoys. It's the preferences that are subjective and a well-tuned product will at least float one team's boat, if not all universally!

But then 'well-tuned product' can be a subjective term too! One man's well-tuned perfection can be another man's CRAP, as we've seen several times here. Lol!

So, at the end of it all, when the 'artist himself checked his song's mixes and in fact listens to all music on a pair of Airpods Pros', do we really need to invest a ton in IEMs, Headphones, DAPs and Desktop Gear? In that case, it would actually save us a ton of money! Just get Airpods like your favourite artists!

Or should we let the artist do what they like, we do what we like but hold the companies using these weird marketing gimmicks to sell their product accountable?

Thanks for sharing! This is a nice read. And props to the sound engineers mixing and mastering the artist's recordings. It's really noticeable the difference/progress in sound quality (not instrument playing technique) when you compare an artist's first album and their latest. I think it's also a two-way dynamic act of the artist knowing their playing style, and their respective engineer understanding their intent

But I can't read that chart ! I personally didn't like phonix LE bass still doesn't even sniff ronin or mentor I'd take impact over phonix LE 10/10 times.

It's just the level of bass mids & treble graphed
Yeah, it's definitely not its strongest suit the bass on LE. Personally I like how it plays its part relative to the whole sound signature. It's a tuning which matches most of my guitar + vocals playlist. Ronin perhaps has more quantity, but I still prefer LE's bass quality. Can't comment still, but excited to finally hear the Mentor this week

@kevin638880 Just received a call from the store, they said 10 units of LE is to arrive this week! I hope HK will get their stock soon

 

[Scubadevils]

Speaking of delayed shipping, I am currently going through the worst customer experience I think I've ever had - I ordered a set of Denon D9200 from a store in the Netherlands on the 17th of February - almost a month later and still not here. I actually asked what shipping method they use before placing the order, and they said DHL or GLS... that was good enough for me, and I went ahead - only to then receive a tracking number with PostNL details, a regular postal service which I've previously experienced long delays with too (although it was only 3 weeks before), and sent instant shudders through me given this was a €1,300 purchase. Many emails back and forth later, and the attitude is bascically... we are sorry, we shipped it and now the fault of the carrier. I know under EU consumer law they must take full responsibility to deliver within 30 days (unless otherwise stated at time of purchase), at which point I am entitled to request a refund - currently at day 25. They are now saying the parcel is in Ireland as of last Friday, yet my local postal service has no record, and the seller hasn't provided evidence to show it's in Ireland! I could have walked the store in the Netherlands and back several times in the meantime, albeit with a ferry first from Ireland-UK-Netherlands

Anyway, I will certainly stick with a select few stores that I know I can trust in future - even though these guys seems a large enough business.

/rant over

 

[Skyediver]

Based on your description, my vote goes to the Traillii. It leans warm but remains coherent. It's still one of my favourite sets for mids and acoustic timbre. The bass is present but doesn't bleed into the mids. It also has safe highs as an all rounder. Trailliis treble is hifi without coming off sharp.

Phonix OG is good option as well if you want more weighty mids. A difference between the Phonix and Traillii is that Traillii has more width to its soundstage, more gaps in between instruments where Phonix was more intimate. I'd pick Phonix if you have a preference for solo vocal encores or small ensemble Jazz. I'd pick the Traillii if you still want good mids but more of an all rounder.

Agree with all of this. Bird is for a trip to an elegant night out to the concert hall, Phonix is for that after hour trip to intimate jazz club where you know the bouncer and can get behind the velvet rope.

 

[Skyediver]

Does anyone feel like the race for neutral sound signatures is really just about flattening the sound? I hear a lot that the idea is that you "can hear music as the artist intended" with a flat response curve. But to me this seems like it's not what the artist intended at all. Take all of electronic music, no artists want's their kickdrum to be coming through at -3db so that it has not thump or feeling to it.

Is this just a neutral sound signature done wrong?

I first started thinking about it when I went through Oluvs tuning of the Earfun Free Pro 2, since then I've been using Wavelet sporadically and noticed every autoeq dramatically nerfs bass. Like on the 7HZ timeless it pretty much removes any feeling from what I already consider a pretty standard low end.

Not a bass head here at all, but some elements of a song are meant to be louder than others by design.

OR is a neutral signature just not meant for every genre?

I honestly think that statement “hearing what the artist intended” is an empty audiophile cliche that needs to die. Means absolutely nothing, yet many (especially those trying to get into hobby and beginning their journey) seem to put so much weight on it, unfortunately. My two cents, of course.

 

[Rockwell75]

Thanks for sharing! This is a nice read. And props to the sound engineers mixing and mastering the artist's recordings. It's really noticeable the difference/progress in sound quality (not instrument playing technique) when you compare an artist's first album and their latest. I think it's also a two-way dynamic act of the artist knowing their playing style, and their respective engineer understanding their intent

It's just the level of bass mids & treble graphed
Yeah, it's definitely not its strongest suit the bass on LE. Personally I like how it plays its part relative to the whole sound signature. It's a tuning which matches most of my guitar + vocals playlist. Ronin perhaps has more quantity, but I still prefer LE's bass quality. Can't comment still, but excited to finally hear the Mentor this week

@kevin638880 Just received a call from the store, they said 10 units of LE is to arrive this week! I hope HK will get their stock soon

+1 Phonix LE has fantastic bass. I didn't get enough time with Ronin to say anything meaningful in comparison beyond that in this case and in general I tend to jive more with VE's tuning than Noble's. I didn't care for Mentor's bass at all...it was the biggest deal breaker for me personally with that IEM. YMMV etc. etc.

 

[wazzupi]

+1 Phonix LE has fantastic bass. I didn't get enough time with Ronin to say anything meaningful in comparison beyond that in this case and in general I tend to jive more with VE's tuning than Noble's. I didn't care for Mentor's bass at all...it was the biggest deal breaker for me personally with that IEM. YMMV etc. etc.

What's your thoughts on impact ? I think you had one for demo ?

 

[drftr]

Speaking of delayed shipping, I am currently going through the worst customer experience I think I've ever had - I ordered a set of Denon D9200 from a store in the Netherlands on the 17th of February - almost a month later and still not here. I actually asked what shipping method they use before placing the order, and they said DHL or GLS... that was good enough for me, and I went ahead - only to then receive a tracking number with PostNL details, a regular postal service which I've previously experienced long delays with too (although it was only 3 weeks before), and sent instant shudders through me given this was a €1,300 purchase. Many emails back and forth later, and the attitude is bascically... we are sorry, we shipped it and now the fault of the carrier. I know under EU consumer law they must take full responsibility to deliver within 30 days (unless otherwise stated at time of purchase), at which point I am entitled to request a refund - currently at day 25. They are now saying the parcel is in Ireland as of last Friday, yet my local postal service has no record, and the seller hasn't provided evidence to show it's in Ireland! I could have walked the store in the Netherlands and back several times in the meantime, albeit with a ferry first from Ireland-UK-Netherlands

Anyway, I will certainly stick with a select few stores that I know I can trust in future - even though these guys seems a large enough business.

/rant over

I sent a parcel from Malaysia to Mathijn in the Netherlands. Made it all the way with Malaysian post to the Netherlands in just over a week (faster than was suggested) where it was lost by PostNL. 1 month later I receive an email from a random person with a totally different name, from a totally different city, with a totally different postal code that my parcel got delivered to them and what to do next. Horrendous.

drftr

 

[Rockwell75]

What's your thoughts on impact ? I think you had one for demo ?

I did-- here are my impressions posted at the time:

Penon Impact Impressions

I have had the pleasure of spending this weekend with the Penon Impact.

Overall a spectacularly enjoyable and highly refined vocal-centric signature that sounds really good with a very broad array of music-- it never sounded off or fatiguing to me. I would describe it as something of a W, centred broadly in the middle-- bass and treble are there and not really in front or behind but they mostly in a supporting role. I really like the treble. It's something I've been fixated on lately beginning with Ani & Gaea last year. Treble on impact is nice, lush, detailed and sparkly but it's not as intense & forward as in Ani and doesn't give off much if any of that e-stat etheric quality.

Mids are interesting and definitely the focal point of the IEM. One of the most interesting features of the tuning is that it seems centred right on the vocal range, with male and female vocals positioned about equally. Instrumental and vocal timbre is really nice. Occasionally I feel a touch of BA-brittleness but this could be because I've been so climatized to Trifecta recently.

Bass is punchy, present but not overbearing and decently extended. Probably the least remarkable area of the FR on the Impact which is pretty typical for BA-driven sets in my experience. All of that said as far as BA bass goes it's pretty decent and beyond the obvious never left me feeling anytihng substantial was missing.

Technically the Impact is very strong, with highlights being detail, resolution and imaging. As with the Traillii the highlight of the Impact for me is its refined mid-centric tonality that sounds good with pretty much everything I've thrown at it.

Quick Comparisons

Traillii - This will be from memory by necessity as I have not heard a Traillii since CanJam. I definitely see the similarities. Fom memory Impact has a little more bass presence and oomph and at the same time lacks a bit of Traillii's pristine transpaency. I'm also not prepared to say it has the magic "je ne sais quoi" factor that the Old Man imbued the Traillii. The bird always swept me up and made me forget time and space as son as I plugged them in. While Impact is very engaging and inviting to long sessions it hasn't quite touched my heart in quite the same way. It could be that I've moved on a little from this sort of sound sig. Curious to hear Trailii alongside this eventually to compare.

Trifecta - It is interesing coming to a fully BA and e-stat driven set after weeks of an exclusive diet of Trifecta's full bodied analogue sound. There is definitely more resolution and precision here with the Impact (par for the course) but at the same time my attention is now skewed more towards getting lost in the detail. It feels now more like I'm looking at a painting in a gallery than becoming one with the feeling and groove which comes more natural to me on DD sets like Trifecta. Technically Impact wins over Trifecta in terms of raw detail and resolution but Trifecta has a vaster deeper stage with better layering.

Some of the music used in the above:

Alice in Chains - No Excuses (Jar of Flies version)
Herbaliser - Starlight
Underworld - M.E.
Morcheeba - The Sea
Everly Brothers - All I Have to do is Dream

 

[Scubadevils]

I sent a parcel from Malaysia to Mathijn in the Netherlands. Made it all the way with Malaysian post to the Netherlands in just over a week (faster than was suggested) where it was lost by PostNL. 1 month later I receive an email from a random person with a totally different name, from a totally different city, with a totally different postal code that my parcel got delivered to them and what to do next. Horrendous.

drftr

Yes the last time I had the unfortunate experience of a shipment via PostNL was for iFi Gryphon, than entire shopping experienced ended up being cursed as it was faulty on arrival! Since ordering the D9200, I've had parcels from the US, Japan, and China all land in less than two weeks!

They just sent me this to 'prove' the parcel is in Ireland... which if it is indeed in Ireland (and not somewhere else), it has been since the 3rd of March!

 

[LH86]

Poll: What IEM should I get next for review - with my love for mids, dislike of overwhelming bass, while still having good bass, and a like for clear cymbals, but without sharpness on the high-mids/highs:

A) Noble Viking Ragnar
B) Aroma Jewel
C) VE Phonix
D) Nostalgia Camelot
E) EE Odin
F) Oriolus Traillii
G) Something Completely Different - Monty Python

Ragnar are my #1 even with stock cable. If you don't want sharpness on highs some cable rolling may help. These like KK on steroid and for me the highest resolution I've heard from IEMs to date.

And if you like Mentor maybe you like Traillii too. Trailli with Orpheus Shield have something very special that other sets didn't.

From your rank list I think you may like Trailli more. But for me nothing (not even Le Jardin) beat Ragnar with Code 23 and KK with Code 23 both are sets I'm find myself enjoy the most.

 

[drftr]

Yes the last time I had the unfortunate experience of a shipment via PostNL was for iFi Gryphon, than entire shopping experienced ended up being cursed as it was faulty on arrival! Since ordering the D9200, I've had parcels from the US, Japan, and China all land in less than two weeks!

They just sent me this to 'prove' the parcel is in Ireland... which if it is indeed in Ireland (and not somewhere else), it has been since the 3rd of March!

Doesn't mean a thing, I'm sorry. Mathijn received a message his parcel had been delivered 3 weeks earlier and then of course contacted them saying he hadn't received it at all! But since it was just 64Audio modules chances were less than zero the delivery guy would have held them himselve. We've been in contact with them far over 10 times and in the end gave up. Then the message from that other person appeared from heaven weeks later.

Now you know exactly how happy I am to go back to a sh!t country like that where everyone is right except you.

drftr

 

[GiullianSN]

I honestly think that statement “hearing what the artist intended” is an empty audiophile cliche that needs to die. Means absolutely nothing, yet many (especially those trying to get into hobby and beginning their journey) seem to put so much weight on it, unfortunately. My two cents, of course.

I agree, mate... This unicorn search is a waste of time and fuel for frustration.

 

[Deezel177]

Thanks for sharing! This is a nice read. And props to the sound engineers mixing and mastering the artist's recordings. It's really noticeable the difference/progress in sound quality (not instrument playing technique) when you compare an artist's first album and their latest. I think it's also a two-way dynamic act of the artist knowing their playing style, and their respective engineer understanding their intent

It's just the level of bass mids & treble graphed
Yeah, it's definitely not its strongest suit the bass on LE. Personally I like how it plays its part relative to the whole sound signature. It's a tuning which matches most of my guitar + vocals playlist. Ronin perhaps has more quantity, but I still prefer LE's bass quality. Can't comment still, but excited to finally hear the Mentor this week

@kevin638880 Just received a call from the store, they said 10 units of LE is to arrive this week! I hope HK will get their stock soon

It also speaks to the importance of picking the right mastering engineer for your project. You can have a record with great performances, an awesome recording and a stellar mix, only to have it botched at the finish line at mastering. I can’t tell you the amount of almost-great records I’ve heard where I’m like, “Agh… If only they used a little less compression, or tried a slightly different EQ, or imaged it just a bit wider.”

 

[drftr]

I can’t tell you the amount of almost-great records I’ve heard where I’m like, “Agh… If only they used a little less compression, or tried a slightly different EQ, or imaged it just a bit wider.”

I never gave that a thought to be honest but indeed it must be extremely frustrating being an engineer yourself.

drftr