The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Feb 12, 2024 at 2:06 AM Post #81,256 of 90,221
I just got my Mentor, while I was impressed with the 3D presentation, the bass was nowhere near my Odin before.

Wondering if there are any bass monster IEMs with holographic presentation?
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 2:19 AM Post #81,257 of 90,221
I just got my Mentor, while I was impressed with the 3D presentation, the bass was nowhere near my Odin before.

Wondering if there are any bass monster IEMs with holographic presentation?
Fatfreq Grand Mastero, Raven/Odyssey or probably FIR RN6 with cable swap...
wait we have Z1R. Z1R is your way to go.
 
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Feb 12, 2024 at 3:30 AM Post #81,259 of 90,221
I just got my Mentor, while I was impressed with the 3D presentation, the bass was nowhere near my Odin before.

Wondering if there are any bass monster IEMs with holographic presentation?
The obvious recommendation would be Raven… although not as bassy as say the XE6 it’s bassier than Odin and Mentor.
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 3:42 AM Post #81,260 of 90,221
Fatfreq Grand Mastero, or probably FIR RN6 with cable swap...
wait we have Z1R. Z1R is your way to go.
Agree with Grand Maestro. Have tried everything until Storm and GM still the best in so many area's.
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 3:59 AM Post #81,261 of 90,221
Hi my friends,

I will write a full cr.

Without any difficulties, in my top 3 ever, every prices, every technologies. 😎👍

Very mature and balanced and homogenous tuning, ultra high technicalities but musical, super easy to load, super good sound isolation, super easy and comfortable fit (these things are tiny, a real feat of strength considering the number and the nature of the drivers).

Two words : it works 👏

Three words : but the price ... 🥺
In french :

https://forum.tellementnomade.org/viewtopic.php?p=936294#p936294
I promise a full traduction this day folks :beerchug:
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 4:00 AM Post #81,262 of 90,221
The obvious recommendation would be Raven… although not as bassy as say the XE6 it’s bassier than Odin and Mentor.

I was just about to post this about the Raven given alamnp already has Odin so there may be benefits to staying with the Empire Ears approach to bass

And 'bass monster' is one of those terms that can mean different things. I thought the EE monitors Odin, Raven, Legend X have a tighter cleaner bass than the XE6 and Trifecta, which in comparison sound woolier to my ears. Disclaimer it was a CanJam London a/b on the Sony WM1Z original and the usual caveats about shows are required
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 4:16 AM Post #81,264 of 90,221
A slippery slope he's on. 🙂
He's lost his footing, fallen off the slope, crashed through three different rabbit holes, and now has that confused grin on his face that comes from not knowing where you are or where you're going.
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 4:16 AM Post #81,265 of 90,221
Fatfreq Grand Mastero, Raven/Odyssey or probably FIR RN6 with cable swap...
wait we have Z1R. Z1R is your way to go.
While I do think that my Z1R has very good bass compared to my other TOTL IEMs (all from 2-3 years ago), I never feel that their bass stands out in any way at all relative to the other frequency range..

However they do benefit from proper system synergy (including tips and cables).. and could go from simply being a nice, relatively flawless set of IEMs in a less than perfect system.. to being something truly amazing when paired with matching gears..

What amazed me the most recently, when I finally removed the last bottleneck in the system, was the Z1R's ability to produce a pseudo 30 x 30cm stage (with some height too that I forgot to measure/pay attention to) in front of my head.. now that's what I would call holographic, from my 25 years in two-channel stereo and more recently, portable audio
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 4:19 AM Post #81,267 of 90,221
Fatfreq Grand Mastero, Raven/Odyssey or probably FIR RN6 with cable swap...
wait we have Z1R. Z1R is your way to go.
Apologies for the multiple posts. I wouldn't call Z1R a bass monster, even though it has exceptional bass and a cavernous stage. Legend X is what I'd pick if bass is a priority, plus a huge stage. The IEMs in the Odin/Odyssey/Raven line seem to have excellent bass and stage but aren't exactly bass monsters. Z1R is more along the lines of that family of IEMs than it is LX.
 
Feb 12, 2024 at 4:25 AM Post #81,268 of 90,221
In french :

https://forum.tellementnomade.org/viewtopic.php?p=936294#p936294
I promise a full traduction this day folks :beerchug:
So, these PMG Audio Apx?

What I look for in my hi-fi listening are products whose general behavior and sound are closest to the sensations of live music. It must be lively, as dynamic as possible, with nuanced transients (from murmurs to extreme violence). The questions of whether it's "neutral" or "straight" or "transparent" don't interest me at all. What I look for are balanced and homogeneous products, both in bandwidth and texture. I'm also interested in "definition" and "resolution": it has to be as high as possible, but still natural. It's like a TV with too high or not enough sharpness. You have to find the right gradient. So I like “on the razor’s edge” products. You also need material, harmonic richness. Overtly analytical sounds don't interest me at all... because they aren't realistic. The same goes for the opposite, when I think it's too "round", or too "warm", or lacking "brilliance" and "bite" (these are purely musical notions by the way) . The stories of "musicality" also seem completely abstract to me...

Anyway, this is what I'm looking for. If a recording, a piece, a track is aggressive, then it should sound like that. If it's soft, well it must sound "soft", if it is... we will understand.

PMG Audio Apx:

Well, we'll move on to the price of the beast... 6000 bucks. Everyone will judge. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

https://pmgaudio.com/

For my part, the more expensive a product is, the less impressionable I am and the more demanding and difficult person I am. A real bip. :dt880smile:

Otherwise, I only judge "in absolute terms", and my barometer is "I have the goosebump" or not. Simple, pure. Stories like "it's very good for the price" or considerations of that type are not mine. It works or it doesn't work, I am affected or not only by what I hear and listen to and feel to. Period. Afterwards yes, there is a qualitative, intrinsic scale but between products that work well, this scale is frankly not that large.

The price, the technologies are therefore first of all informations for me, and what interests me, really, is what remains: the sound of course, but above all the music. :grinning:

On the other hand, I like beautiful objects, I freely confess. Also the question of ergonomics and comfort are absolutely essential. How does it suit me to have in my hands the best earphones in the world if they don't fit in my ears :deadhorse:

For the APX, the object itself is beautiful, undeniably qualitative, made with noble materials (amber for the faceplates)... but I was not touched more than that by the aesthetics. At the same time we had the Aure Elixir and Ringo on the table, and for my part, there is no contest, for these 2 luxury products, in comparison.

On the other hand, a matter of wonder, the APX are... very small ! :heart_eyes:

It's a tour de force considering the number of drivers and the nature of the drivers, it's just extraordinary...

Then, I found the fit to be just exceptional for universal earphones. In any case, with my ear shape, it was like wearing custom-made shoes... For me it's the best fit and comfort I've ever gotten, followed by my Ringos. :beerchug:

Alas, I know that for my friend @lafeuill it didn't happen like that at all... :scream:

Then the sound insulation was excellent. Among the best I have ever experienced with universal earphones, on the same level as my Ringos, who are also on the podium from this particular point of view.

Finally, from an ergonomic point of view, the cable is excellent: thin, super flexible, nothing to say. It is also very qualitative, in terms of the materials used and the quality of manufacturing. On the other hand, at a purely sound level, I have the idea that we can go further, by choosing a few very specific associations.

Sound and lights:

For listening, the stock cable was chosen. Indeed, the 2 pins must be forced "a little" when changing cables and therefore @gmfg1 asked us not to change cables.

For the DAP, we had on hand the RS8 from @gmfg1 , the N8II (AB mode) from @Zeben and therefore the m1p from me.

In all 3 cases, the APX gave a very faithful partition of the 3 daps, a sign of an excellent transparency:

- RS8, the most "soft" (quotes because it's more complicated than that), the most organic maybe, r2r inside. I found the best marriage.
- m1p the most spontaneous and direct, the most technical, Sabre inside. On the verge of a fault but just on the limit. Ultra vivid.
- N8II at the crossroads, AB load.

In all 3 cases, excellent results in themselves, just different presentations and more or less good synergies. Imo (but there was consensus) the RS8 was the best choice.
For the tips, I used my "endgame" narrow gel cat paws tips (https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/CWU-GECL-Eartips-Isolating-Prevent-Enhanced/dp/B0991RL358) : perfect. :beerchug:

Otherwise how does it work? :L3000:

Well it flies. :dt880smile:

Seriously, it ticks absolutely all my boxes: balanced, bass loud when needed and the opposite when not needed, extreme finesse and refinement (high), openness, true dynamics (rare), crystal transparency, definition and resolution at the max of the max of the max, but without the need to “rig” the target curve : no tuning trickery. It is also remarkable for its coherence and homogeneity. At no time does the idea of listening to a hybrid montage arise.

We also obtain a restitution of great class, of great finesse which recalls the best sedentary systems (we had one a few meters from us all... and which was able to have its "small" effect :ksc75smile:) , when it comes to the richness and the realism of the timbres and tones for example.

On the other hand, be careful: formula 1 in the garage... :scream:

With the m1p and N8II, the high midrange on certain ranges could be borderline faulty (for example certain intense electric guitars chops). It reminded me of the Final A8000 from this particular point of view (but a way more refined version for the APX, and more natural). It can be VERY intense. Personally, I love it, and in particular these products on the razor's edge that you have to somehow tame to achieve their quintessence.

From then on, we talked about it, but the idea of testing a few elite cables would undoubtedly be a good initiative. In particular, I think about my Ares S FE would do wonders... the problem is getting one because people have to go over my dead body :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I'm thinking of the Yatono Ultimate from Brise which would undoubtedly be a interesting move. Maybe an Orpheus (shielded?), because it's a very (too?) soft but technical sounding cable, very dense and textured (not really my thing, the latter, but the synergies always have the last word :grinning:) .

Conclusion :

Well “unfortunately”, it works. Super strongly and “by itself”.

It's a sound and musical profile that I would describe as "reference / balanced / mature / intense but under control / alive".

In short, this product, soundly and musically wise absolutely ticks ALL my boxes... and believe me these are not boxes easy to tick.

The €6,000 question: would I buy them?

No.

I win something and I have €6k on hand, just like this ?

Yes, twice... :heart_eyes::L3000:

Are my current champions ridiculous, ridiculoused, dropped, crushed, pulverized?......................

Not at all. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Oh last thing but not least: they can be driven very easily, super easy load, literally by themselves.

There you go, thanks for reading folks :k701smile::k701smile:
 
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Feb 12, 2024 at 4:26 AM Post #81,269 of 90,221
A fantastic new release from the always excellent Touched Music label. Very reminiscent of early 90s IDM / ambient techno - melodic, lovely intricate drum programming and a funky edge which in particular reminds me of the legendary Black Dog work again in the early 90s prior to the split and formation of Plaid.

 
Feb 12, 2024 at 5:21 AM Post #81,270 of 90,221
So, these PMG Audio Apx?

What I look for in my hi-fi listening are products whose general behavior and sound are closest to the sensations of live music. It must be lively, as dynamic as possible, with nuanced transients (from murmurs to extreme violence). The questions of whether it's "neutral" or "straight" or "transparent" don't interest me at all. What I look for are balanced and homogeneous products, both in bandwidth and texture. I'm also interested in "definition" and "resolution": it has to be as high as possible, but still natural. It's like a TV with too high or not enough sharpness. You have to find the right gradient. So I like “on the razor’s edge” products. You also need material, harmonic richness. Overtly analytical sounds don't interest me at all... because they aren't realistic. The same goes for the opposite, when I think it's too "round", or too "warm", or lacking "brilliance" and "bite" (these are purely musical notions by the way) . The stories of "musicality" also seem completely abstract to me...

Anyway, this is what I'm looking for. If a recording, a piece, a track is aggressive, then it should sound like that. If it's soft, well it must sound "soft", if it is... we will understand.

PMG Audio Apx:

Well, we'll move on to the price of the beast... 6000 bucks. Everyone will judge. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

https://pmgaudio.com/

For my part, the more expensive a product is, the less impressionable I am and the more demanding and difficult I am. A real bip. :dt880smile:

Otherwise, I only judge "in absolute terms", and my barometer is "I have the goosebump" or not. Simple, pure. Stories like "it's very good for the price" or considerations of that type are not mine. It works or it doesn't work, I am affected or not only by what I hear and listen to and feel to. Period. Afterwards yes, there is a qualitative, intrinsic scale but between products that work well, this scale is frankly not that large.

The price, the technologies are therefore first of all informations for me, and what interests me, really, is what remains: the sound of course, but above all the music. :grinning:

On the other hand, I like beautiful objects, I freely confess. Also the question of ergonomics and comfort are absolutely essential. How does it suit me to have in my hands the best earphones in the world if they don't fit in my ears :deadhorse:

For the APX, the object itself is beautiful, undeniably qualitative, made with noble materials (amber for the faceplates)... but I was not touched more than that by the aesthetics. At the same time we had the Aure Elixir and Ringo on the table, and for my part, there is no contest, for these 2 luxury products, in comparison.

On the other hand, a matter of wonder, the APX are... very small ! :heart_eyes:

It's a tour de force considering the number of drivers and the nature of the drivers, it's just extraordinary...

Then, I found the fit to be just exceptional for universal earphones. In any case, with my ear shape, it was like wearing custom-made shoes... For me it's the best fit and comfort I've ever gotten, followed by my Ringos. :beerchug:

Alas, I know that for my friend @lafeuill it didn't happen like that at all... :scream:

Then the sound insulation was excellent. Among the best I have ever experienced with universal earphones, on the same level as my Ringos, who are also on the podium from this particular point of view.

Finally, from an ergonomic point of view, the cable is excellent: thin, super flexible, nothing to say. It is also very qualitative, in terms of the materials used and the quality of manufacturing. On the other hand, at a purely sound level, I have the idea that we can go further, by choosing a few very specific associations.

Sound and lights:

For listening, the stock cable was chosen. Indeed, the 2 pins must be forced "a little" when changing cables and therefore @gmfg1 asked us not to change cables.

For the DAP, we had on hand the RS8 from @gmfg1 , the N8II (AB mode) from @Zeben and therefore the m1p from me.

In all 3 cases, the APX gave a very faithful partition of the 3 daps, a sign of an excellent transparency:

- RS8, the most "soft" (quotes because it's more complicated than that), the most organic maybe, r2r inside. I found the best marriage.
- m1p the most spontaneous and direct, the most technical, Sabre inside. On the verge of a fault but just on the limit. Ultra vivid.
- N8II at the crossroads, AB load.

In all 3 cases, excellent results in themselves, just different presentations and more or less good synergies. Imo (but there was consensus) the RS8 was the best choice.
For the tips, I used my "endgame" narrow gel cat paws tips (https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/CWU-GECL-Eartips-Isolating-Prevent-Enhanced/dp/B0991RL358) : perfect. :beerchug:

Otherwise how does it work? :L3000:

Well it flies. :dt880smile:

Seriously, it ticks absolutely all my boxes: balanced, bass loud when needed and the opposite when not needed, extreme finesse and refinement (high), openness, true dynamics (rare), crystal transparency, definition and resolution at the max of the max of the max, but without the need to “rig” the target curve : no tuning trickery. It is also remarkable for its coherence and homogeneity. At no time does the idea of listening to a hybrid montage arise.

We also obtain a restitution of great class, of great finesse which recalls the best sedentary systems (we had one a few meters from us all... and which was able to have its "small" effect :ksc75smile:) , when it comes to the richness and the realism of the timbres and tones for example.

On the other hand, be careful: formula 1 in the garage... :scream:

With the m1p and N8II, the high midrange on certain ranges could be borderline faulty (for example certain intense electric guitars chops). It reminded me of the Final A8000 from this particular point of view (but a way more refined version for the APX, and more natural). It can be VERY intense. Personally, I love it, and in particular these products on the razor's edge that you have to somehow tame to achieve their quintessence.

From then on, we talked about it, but the idea of testing a few elite cables would undoubtedly be a good initiative. In particular, I think about my Ares S FE would do wonders... the problem is getting one because I'll have to go over my body :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I'm thinking of the Yatono Ultimate from Brise which would undoubtedly be a interesting move. Maybe an Orpheus (shielded?), because it's a very (too?) soft but technical sounding cable, very dense and textured (not really my thing, the latter, but the synergies always have the last word :grinning:) .

Conclusion :

Well “unfortunately”, it works. Super strong and “in itself”.

It's a sound and musical profile that I would describe as "reference / balanced / mature / intense but under control / alive".

In short, this product, soundly and musically wise absolutely ticks ALL my boxes... and believe me they are not boxes easy to tick.

The €6,000 question: would I buy them?

No.

I win something and I have €6k on hand, just like this ?

Yes, twice... :heart_eyes::L3000:

Are my current champions ridiculous, ridiculoused, dropped, crushed, pulverized?......................

Not at all. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Oh last thing but not least: they can be drived very easily, super easy load, literally by themselves.

There you go, thanks for reading folks :k701smile::k701smile:

Hi @DaveStarWalker,
I very much enjoyed your review of the Apx, It's because your style of writing impresses with its conciseness which you achieve through your rich palette of attributes and nouns for how something sounds.
Your own way (a special gift) of describing the sound characteristics of the Apx has given me a very vivid, lively, actually realistic impression of what makes the Apx special and what it sounds like. I would be very interested in it, but the price...
Thank you @DaveStarWalker.
 

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