[aaf evo]

That's not "extensive 'brain burn-in'" to me. Just a bit of adaptation.
If it's more than a while, to me you're forcing yourself to like something you really don't like.

Yeah I get you. I have just never heard a set where extensive listening made me like it if I disliked it already. So I guess I’m viewing it differently than brain burn in.

 

[kmhaynes]

In no particular order:

1) Lack of bass texture
2) Lack of sufficient midbass or low-mid weight for cello
3) Uppermid 'shout'
4) Unbalanced pinna-treble / overly U-shaped
5) Flat pinna such that vocals feel recessed or lifeless

In your #4 and #5 you use the term "pinna," and I've seen others use this phrase to describe some aspect of sound. I'm familiar with pinna referring to the physical entire outer ear structure, but what does "pinna" describe in terms of frequency response?

 

[ian91]

In your #4 and #5 you use the term "pinna," and I've seen others use this phrase to describe some aspect of sound. I'm familiar with pinna referring to the physical entire outer ear structure, but what does "pinna" describe in terms of frequency response?

Referring to the pinna gain employed by tuners of IEMs to replicate the effect of the human pinna on 2-5khz. This largely amplifies vocals and enhances some nuances and probably provided some survival advantage as we evolved.

 

[kmhaynes]

Referring to the pinna gain employed by tuners of IEMs to replicate the effect of the human pinna on 2-5khz. This largely amplifies vocals and enhances some nuances and probably provided some survival advantage as we evolved.

Gotcha, thx.

 

[Bret Halford]

I generally call that Ear Resonance, as the pinna is a relatively minor contributor, it's mainly canal and concha driven:

There's not really any consensus term as far as I know, lots of people refer to it as Pinna gain which is fine - I am just an old Etyhead (ER4 = Ear Resonance 4).

 

[mashuto]

I tend to be very critical of the claims and history of the company and people behind the IEMs. Once I find a company that I find likable, capable and honest it is no problem for me to find the value in their IEMs. I have a broad enough musical library that I can find a home for just about any coherent frequency response.

Deal breakers for me:

1) No tuning direction: when every new flagship or model is tuned radically different than the last it shows they have no vision for what they are wanting to achieve: no purpose, no vision, no thanks.

2) Technical misinformation: I'll forgive some inappropriate wording, but a lot of companies make claims that either demonstrate dishonesty or fundamental ignorance of the physics involved, either way no way I'll give them my money.

3) Build issues: It's perhaps a byproduct of how quickly most of the enthusiasts in this hobby cycle through gear, but I find that long term product build quality is generally lacking from most if not all TOTL boutiques currently. I tend to prefer pro gear as a result, but see point 1

Interesting points you bring up. And there is at least one company I will forever avoid because of associations to a certain previous company.

I did want to speak to my opinions about your points. For number 1 I think that can sometimes work the opposite direction. Everyone talks about companies having a house sound, but I think having various tunings can be a good thing as well to give options in choosing different sound profiles instead of everything kind of sounding the same. Of course the big downside is that they need to be able to do those tunings well, and doing a bunch of wildly varying tunings well certainly seems difficult.

As for build issues, most dont seem to have issues specifically, but build quality especially when you are paying huge sums should likely be given a lot of importance. I guess some focus strictly on sound, and there has to be a point when you are cramming more and more drivers into something meant to fit in the ear that you have to choose between using potentially heavier and stronger materials for something light weight and easy to work with.

For me, I would also throw in that companies that are constantly churning out more and more products are kind of a deal breaker for me. That and potentially tons of limited editions. I dont like the whole idea of capitalizing on FOMO. If a product is good, sell it as a product instead of a timed limited release. Also having 8 versions of essentially the same IEM released in a short time frame... no thanks for me.

For sound, the big one for me is just weak or lacking bass, and sharp piercing treble. No thanks.

 

[552609]

I'm the same way though at this point a lot comes down to experience. 2-3 years ago I needed to spend a bit more time with something to figure out if it was for me or not (though sometimes I knew right away) but lately I've got a more high res sense of what I like, what to listen for, and what will become intolerable for me in the long run that often within and hour and easily within a day I can figure out if something is for me or not. That said it still often takes me longer to really get a 360 degree view of what something has to offer.

This made me think of a survey:

What are people's most common "instant deal breakers"? IE., those things that will immediately tell you that some IEM is not for you?

For me:

1) Weak or inadequate bass.
2) Harsh or excess energy up top (typically upper mids or lower treble).
3) Veiled mids.

Bad fit/weight
Thinness of sound
Sibilance/sharpness (Trifecta seems to be the exception, though it can still be painful).
Bad quality mids.

 

[Bret Halford]

Interesting points you bring up. And there is at least one company I will forever avoid because of associations to a certain previous company.

I did want to speak to my opinions about your points. For number 1 I think that can sometimes work the opposite direction. Everyone talks about companies having a house sound, but I think having various tunings can be a good thing as well to give options in choosing different sound profiles instead of everything kind of sounding the same. Of course the big downside is that they need to be able to do those tunings well, and doing a bunch of wildly varying tunings well certainly seems difficult.

As for build issues, most dont seem to have issues specifically, but build quality especially when you are paying huge sums should likely be given a lot of importance. I guess some focus strictly on sound, and there has to be a point when you are cramming more and more drivers into something meant to fit in the ear that you have to choose between using potentially heavier and stronger materials for something light weight and easy to work with.

For me, I would also throw in that companies that are constantly churning out more and more products are kind of a deal breaker for me. That and potentially tons of limited editions. I dont like the whole idea of capitalizing on FOMO. If a product is good, sell it as a product instead of a timed limited release. Also having 8 versions of essentially the same IEM released in a short time frame... no thanks for me.

For sound, the big one for me is just weak or lacking bass, and sharp piercing treble. No thanks.

To clarify, I don't dislike companies that have different model tunings for different purposes available in parallel, my point is more in regard to serial releases (sequels, iterations, "this year's flagship"). If they have a series for monitoring for instance, a radical change in tuning for that application needs to be an improvement for that purpose... huge shifts in the tuning tend to indicate blind experimentation rather than refinement, at the least it shows a disregard for the prior tuning philosophy they employed. Similarly for TOTL models, I don't find it credible that a designer's vision for the ultimate sound changes fundamentally from one year to the next...

Build issues, I wish I could agree, but I certainly find that the general production rule of scale and predictable reliability is true. I hold expensive products like these to a very high standard, and the performance claims and cosmetic investment are substantial. Especially with repeat business, it has been surprisingly likely that I get product failure within warranty period, and increasingly so as I go up in price. I find large established 'pro' brands (Sennheiser, Etymotic, Shure, Westone) have an order of magnitude better quality than the boutiques, but they unfortunately lack the former's intense innovation!

I agree completely on your additional point, a good IEM should stand on its performance for several years if not more! There's a lot of hyper consumerism that runs rampant, and I am as guilty of getting as hyped as anyone for 'next product' but over time it gets exhausting.

 

[mashuto]

To clarify, I don't dislike companies that have different model tunings for different purposes available in parallel, my point is more in regard to serial releases (sequels, iterations, "this year's flagship"). If they have a series for monitoring for instance, a radical change in tuning for that application needs to be an improvement for that purpose... huge shifts in the tuning tend to indicate blind experimentation rather than refinement, at the least it shows a disregard for the prior tuning philosophy they employed. Similarly for TOTL models, I don't find it credible that a designer's vision for the ultimate sound changes fundamentally from one year to the next...

Build issues, I wish I could agree, but I certainly find that the general production rule of scale and predictable reliability is true. I hold expensive products like these to a very high standard, and the performance claims and cosmetic investment are substantial. Especially with repeat business, it has been surprisingly likely that I get product failure within warranty period, and increasingly so as I go up in price. I find large established 'pro' brands (Sennheiser, Etymotic, Shure, Westone) have an order of magnitude better quality than the boutiques, but they unfortunately lack the former's intense innovation!

I agree completely on your additional point, a good IEM should stand on its performance for several years if not more! There's a lot of hyper consumerism that runs rampant, and I am as guilty of getting as hyped as anyone for 'next product' but over time it gets exhausting.

I guess part of it for me is that I am more ok with big shifts in tuning and companies trying out different things. I look at a lot of whats out there and how certain communities seem to take specific frequency targets as gospel and anything that deviates automatically gets labeled as bad. So thats really more what I was talking about. Of course having different lines for different purposes should be, but I guess I am just fine with the experimentation.

I also guess I just personally havent encountered any products that have just failed. Have had a few needing occasional replacement on initial purchase, but nothing that broke or failed. I was more just talking about how there seem to be many very expensive products that are all just the same thin resin or acrylic material, sometimes with faceplates that just have glitter there. That to me does not really scream quality. But again I think a lot of them prioritize sound over all else. And there is definitely a point to be made for lightweight and comfortable. Of course, for the price a lot of these go for now, they really should basically be perfect.

But yea, the special editions and constant re-releases or time limited releases. I very much dislike it. Campfire as an example. I like them, but they have so many special editions and slightly updated versions of the same models. Also looking at like unique melody. I know some of their IEMs are very hot around this thread lately, but it seems like they have released dozens of IEMs in the last year or two, with like 4 version of the mest, a bunch of different versions of the mentor. And when the products are costing thousands of dollars it seems like the whole business model is just to get people to feel like they are missing out if they arent constantly buying their new products.

Oh yea I left out the main main dealbreaker for me. When an IEM is uncomfortable. My ears are sensitive so pretty much none are truly comfortable to me over longer periods. But the Z1R was probably the best sounding IEM, but its just so big and bulky that not only was it uncomfortable, but it became painful to use for more than maybe like half an hour.

 

[wolfstar76]

I'm the same way though at this point a lot comes down to experience. 2-3 years ago I needed to spend a bit more time with something to figure out if it was for me or not (though sometimes I knew right away) but lately I've got a more high res sense of what I like, what to listen for, and what will become intolerable for me in the long run that often within and hour and easily within a day I can figure out if something is for me or not. That said it still often takes me longer to really get a 360 degree view of what something has to offer.

This made me think of a survey:

What are people's most common "instant deal breakers"? IE., those things that will immediately tell you that some IEM is not for you?

For me:

1) Weak or inadequate bass.
2) Harsh or excess energy up top (typically upper mids or lower treble).
3) Veiled mids.

The instant deal breakers for me:
1). Weak bass
2). Thin notes, especially in the Mids
3). Too much energy in treble.

 

[stacey]

Anyone else curious about the AK Zero2? Price is $1100 - https://www.astellnkern.com/product/product_detail.jsp?productNo=144

Advanced Quad-brid Design​

Special Micro Rectangular Planar Dynamic Driver- [High] Crisp and Dynamic Treble Sound
The Micro Rectangular Planar Dynamic Driver is a driver specifically developed to deliver high frequencies, featuring advanced technology that allows a planar driver to be used in IEMs, despite the extreme difficulty in making it small enough to fit in such a small cavity.
We selected a light yet sturdy planar membrane to minimize frequency loss and applied a trembler with a thin metal membrane and polymer film to create lifelike vivid high frequencies. This provides a clear and dynamic high frequency response.

Dual Custom Balanced Armature Drivers- [Mid-Low] Transparent Vocal sound
- [Full Range] Perfectly Balanced and Rich Sound
The Coil Parameter Dual Custom BA Driver is a custom-made driver designed to reproduce both full-range and mid- to low-range frequencies.
It comes with a total of four drivers: two BA drivers that offer ultra-low distortion to create clear low- to mid-ranged vocal sounds and two BA drivers that offer perfectly balanced rich sounds, uniquely tuned to harmonize each frequency range, playing perfect sounds.

Single 10-mm Dynamic Driver with Piezoelectric Transducer- [Low & Super High] The Deepest Bass and Clear Treble Sound
Various types of carefully designed drivers create rich, Hi-Fi sounds. The 10-mm dynamic driver used in the AK ZERO2 is meticulously manufactured using a fully automated process. This allows the driver to recreate rich and deep low frequencies.
An additional piezoelectric transducer works in tandem with the dynamic driver, serving as a super tweeter that asserts its presence in the super-high frequency range that many IEMs struggle to recreate.

Late to this, but it’s still not out nor are there any reviews on this. I’m guessing I won’t be able to try it out, or hear much about this until can jam SoCal at this rate. Still interested in A&K!


That said the constant onslaught of TOTL IEMs is a little fatiguing, it seems like every manufacturer is lining up to drop another $3k + IEM. Ugh.

 

[wolfstar76]

Late to this, but it’s still not out nor are there any reviews on this. I’m guessing I won’t be able to try it out, or hear much about this until can jam SoCal at this rate. Still interested in A&K!


That said the constant onslaught of TOTL IEMs is a little fatiguing, it seems like every manufacturer is lining up to drop another $3k + IEM. Ugh.

Competition is always a good thing, on one hand we have more choices, on the other hand, the prices may eventually go down if those TOTL IEMs are indeed worthy. But I am afraid that even with more $3k+ IEMs in the market, most of them will just come and go, and the those who stay will be able to keep the inflated prices.

 

[kevin638880]

I'm the same way though at this point a lot comes down to experience. 2-3 years ago I needed to spend a bit more time with something to figure out if it was for me or not (though sometimes I knew right away) but lately I've got a more high res sense of what I like, what to listen for, and what will become intolerable for me in the long run that often within and hour and easily within a day I can figure out if something is for me or not. That said it still often takes me longer to really get a 360 degree view of what something has to offer.

This made me think of a survey:

What are people's most common "instant deal breakers"? IE., those things that will immediately tell you that some IEM is not for you?

For me:

1) Weak or inadequate bass.
2) Harsh or excess energy up top (typically upper mids or lower treble).
3) Veiled mids.

1. Thin sound.
2. Veiled mids.
3. Piercing uppermids/treble.

 

[Stu Paddasso]

1. Harsh screaming treble. Like someone sticking a pencil in my ear.
2. Recessed mids/ low clarity
3. No bass or blotted bass

 

[fejnomit]

1. Upper mid/lower treble peakiness (honk, edge, pierce) - literally regardless of how stellar the rest of the FR might be... just can't do it... and i find it all the time... and i'm in my 50's...
2. Companies that churn out new megabuck flagships too fast - lacks respect for the consumer because it instantly devalues prior models and is sort of an avowal that either a) they are just in it for the money or b) they're really not that good at tuning and need to keep trying... (especially when there is nothing really new or better-sounding or better-built in the newest flagship yet it costs more - here the market language is at fault too...)
3. Boomy bass - not enough sub-bass depth or texture and too high an imprecise mid-bass bump; i actually mind less if it bleeds into lower mids but if it's over all too fat, then no thanks...