[Rockwell75]

From reading about experiences from others that's supposedly because of the accentuated sub-bass. For that reason they suggested exchanging the M15 APEX module for an N0 ATOM module from FIR Audio, to create a very useful step between M15 and MX. This would lower sub-bass attenuation and make mids sound slightly fuller. I thought that might be much more to my liking, tonality-wise.

Actually, thinking back about your U12t review this slight modification may actually give it the warmth and engagement you were missing yourself...

https://www.firaudio.com/store/atom-xl-4pk

drftr

I dunno I can't comment on the experiences of others but it didn't matter which of the 3 modules I had that I was using the midrange of the Nio always came off like a 2-d image atop a 3-d mound of bass...with varying degrees of bass.

It's not warmth I was missing-- my issue with the u12t isn't that it was "cold"-- it's that I found it thin, which is different. The u12t actually has a very warm-ish sound overall...it just lacks certain dynamic weight, density & grip that I like.

As with everything, YMMV.

 

[mashuto]

It's strange because Nio seems to be the most affected by swapping the APEX modules. With the MX & M15 it's like it was 2 completely different IEMs, for me anyway. I couldn't listen to it at all with the M20 module. No other IEM in 64 Audio's lineup seems to be respond this much to the swap. This is one reason why I've always liked the APEX system.

Were you also using mx on any of the other iems? Because I think honestly 64 didn't do a good job with the MX and made it way too "open" for lack of a better word. On the nio, the m15 and m20 were rather similar, it was just the MX that was really different. It just kind of let the wind out of the sails in the bass, so to speak. The fir N0 module was a good middle point but was still much closer to the m15 than the MX.

All of that to say that my experience was less about the nio being too affected (though it's the only swappable Apex 64 iem I have heard), but rather just that the MX module itself is much different than the others.

 

[drftr]

The fir N0 module was a good middle point but was still much closer to the m15 than the MX.

When I asked 64 Audio whether the Nio could be ordered with an N0 module to bridge the gap between M15 and MX I got a 3 word response as the result. They must seriously hate customers that want to make their products work. Similar response when I asked whether it was possible to order them without the $200 cable as I will throw away all accessories anyway. Great way to kill any potential interest in a product and brand for sure!

drftr

 

[mashuto]

When I asked 64 Audio whether the Nio could be ordered with an N0 module to bridge the gap between M15 and MX I got a 3 word response as the result. They must seriously hate customers that want to make their products work. Similar response when I asked whether it was possible to order them without the $200 cable as I will throw away all accessories anyway. Great way to kill any potential interest in a product and brand for sure!

drftr

Well 64 doesn't make the N0, so I wouldn't have expected them to offer it as an add on anyways. As for the cable, ehh it's pretty standard practice for cables to be included with iems. Very few are offered with a cable less option.

Plus there's no way that cable actually costs them anywhere near $200 to make so even in the case where a cable wasn't included in doubt it would result in anywhere near that reduction in price.

 

[drftr]

Well 64 doesn't make the N0, so I wouldn't have expected them to offer it as an add on anyways. As for the cable, ehh it's pretty standard practice for cables to be included with iems. Very few are offered with a cable less option.

Plus there's no way that cable actually costs them anywhere near $200 to make so even in the case where a cable wasn't included in doubt it would result in anywhere near that reduction in price.

There's many brands offering a zillion tips from other brands in their box for free, so why not offering a module from another brand that is specifically made to work with 64 Audio (the ones for Fir products have a different size) and make money doing so? Again, I think it's down to being customer friendly or not. And since they have customizable products as well why not customizing what the customer wants? I mean, these are not sub $100 earbuds, and it's 2021...

drftr

 

[mashuto]

There's many brands offering a zillion tips from other brands in their box for free, so why not offering a module from another brand that is specifically made to work with 64 Audio (the ones for Fir products have a different size) and make money doing so? Again, I think it's down to being customer friendly or not. And since they have customizable products as well why not customizing what the customer wants? I mean, these are not sub $100 earbuds, and it's 2021...

drftr

Tips are a bit different in my mind as they are cheap and aren't usually a competing product to something these iem manufacturers make themselves. 64 includes spinfits now anyways.

Someone else may know more, but im pretty sure the owner of 64 and fir are brothers and there may have been a falling out at some point that led to fir being started. Which would also explain them not wanting to bundle their products. Could be way off base with that one though as I've only ever seen the occasional post in the forums.

Either way, I just don't see them offering a fairly standard package as not being customer friendly.

 

[rantng]

There's many brands offering a zillion tips from other brands in their box for free, so why not offering a module from another brand that is specifically made to work with 64 Audio (the ones for Fir products have a different size) and make money doing so? Again, I think it's down to being customer friendly or not. And since they have customizable products as well why not customizing what the customer wants? I mean, these are not sub $100 earbuds, and it's 2021...

drftr

That would open the door to too many issues & also cause delays in order fulfillment. I imagine this to be the case in any industry; the more customization options offered the more it would interrupt the regular flow. On a side note, I wish companies still offered custom faceplates for universal IEMs, but I understand why most companies don't offer this.

 

[drftr]

That would open the door to too many issues & also cause delays in order fulfillment. I imagine this to be the case in any industry; the more customization options offered the more it would interrupt the regular flow. On a side note, I wish companies still offered custom faceplates for universal IEMs, but I understand why most companies don't offer this.

Exactly. I'm a potential client, willing to pay for customization, and for that they have to deliver less. What's not to like from a business stand point, and does it weigh up against not getting that client? If that's the case then I'm sure they don't need my money. There's plenty of others that will take it with both hands I'm sure.

drftr

 

[blotmouse]

Exactly. I'm a potential client, willing to pay for customization, and for that they have to deliver less. What's not to like from a business stand point, and does it weigh up against not getting that client? If that's the case then I'm sure they don't need my money. There's plenty of others that will take it with both hands I'm sure.

drftr

I think you may have forgot about the existence of lawyers? Just including a 50 cent stick of gum in the package could cost them 5 million to broker the deal after fees and paperwork and risk assessment.
You can't go to McDonalds and demand Jack in the box fries be included in your happy meal or they hate their customers.

 

[Tristy]

Exactly. I'm a potential client, willing to pay for customization, and for that they have to deliver less. What's not to like from a business stand point, and does it weigh up against not getting that client? If that's the case then I'm sure they don't need my money. There's plenty of others that will take it with both hands I'm sure.

drftr

As @mashuto mentioned, the relationship between 64 and FiR isn't widely known and the potential to introduce a competing IEM makers products through including their accessories in your own seems a bit silly. Not all audio enthusiasts are as clued up as some on this forum and the potential of losing customers to competing brands through this means is an avenue best left unexplored if you ask me. As for the tips comment, the tip manufacturers in questions don't offer IEM's.

 

[drftr]

I think you may have forgot about the existence of lawyers? Just including a 50 cent stick of gum in the package could cost them 5 million to broker the deal after fees and paperwork and risk assessment.
You can't go to McDonalds and demand Jack in the box fries be included in your happy meal or they hate their customers.

I want less. Not more. How many companies are delivering inferior cables with their top products that end up in your cupboard because 1) you already have 10 inferior cables that came with your other top IEMs, or 2) you have found your one cable and therefore don't need yet another. Honestly, I think it's a total waste and they only do it so that they can charge you more. And at the same extreme 2 grand smartphones don't even come with a charging cable. See the difference?

drftr

 

[blotmouse]

So you're the reason I don't get a charger with my computer now

64 has made statements on why they include the cables they do. It's basically because they sell to a ton more musicians than audiophiles, and those musicians have SE 3.5" jacks everywhere and don't care about gold palladium plated anything. They use and stay with the cable it comes with. If it came w/o a cable there would be 900% more complaints than the complaint of e-waste by folks who have their own idea of what a good cable is vs. a bad one.

 

[drftr]

So you're the reason I don't get a charger with my computer now

64 has made statements on why they include the cables they do. It's basically because they sell to a ton more musicians than audiophiles, and those musicians have SE 3.5" jacks everywhere and don't care about gold palladium plated anything. They use and stay with the cable it comes with. If it came w/o a cable there would be 900% more complaints than the complaint of e-waste by folks who have their own idea of what a good cable is vs. a bad one.

That's fine as far as I'm concerned. Just don't tell your customers that you value their interests and do customizations because of that. Like when ordering I can choose between different connector types, and cable lengths, but not to leave it out. To me that's just plain weird. But I guess that's just my minimalist view and that's not any better (nor worse) than someone else's valueing yet another cable that goes to waste much higher than I do. In the end we're all different.

drftr

 

[mashuto]

So you're the reason I don't get a charger with my computer now

64 has made statements on why they include the cables they do. It's basically because they sell to a ton more musicians than audiophiles, and those musicians have SE 3.5" jacks everywhere and don't care about gold palladium plated anything. They use and stay with the cable it comes with. If it came w/o a cable there would be 900% more complaints than the complaint of e-waste by folks who have their own idea of what a good cable is vs. a bad one.

Just look at the recent discussion about the new effect audio iem. It comes without a cable supposedly in the name of not creating waste, with the idea that audiophiles likely already have cables. It was met with annoyance.

 

[drftr]

Just look at the recent discussion about the new effect audio iem. It comes without a cable supposedly in the name of not creating waste, with the idea that audiophiles likely already have cables. It was met with annoyance.

But that's the exact reason why they should make it optionable! If they're willing to put cables of different length or with different connectors in a box it proves the point that it's not about that one extra action. Everything in life is optionable. Except cables. End-of-rant.

drftr