The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Jul 11, 2021 at 10:08 AM Post #1,622 of 82,285
PSA-- acknowledging that there is a difference between "Eastern (ie., Chifi)" tuning and "western" tuning in IEMs does not make one a racist or imply racism. It has been a very useful distinction for me to make when it comes to trying to understand different people's tuning and listening preferences and where they are coming from when commenting on an IEM. I first encountered the idea a couple years ago on Discord when I was told emphatically and conclusively that the IER Z1R was a superior IEM to the Campfire Solaris because the former "makes my JPOP & KPOP sound better". A lot of what it boils down to I think is that much Western music (rock, rap, rhythm & blues, jazz, funk etc. etc.) has its DNA in the mid-bass & lower mids. Conversely a lot of Eastern music (JPOP, KPOP etc.) has much of its DNA in the upper mids/lower treble...and these different ideals are clearly reflected in different tunings of various IEMs.

IEMs tuned in the "western" direction often can sound "muddy" to those who prefer a more eastern tuning, and conversely IEMs tuned in the "eastern" direction can sound shouty and fatiguing up top (and somewhat thin down low) to those who prefer a more western tuning. At the time I first heard both the Solaris & Z1R back to back my ultimate preference was for the Solaris at the time in large part due to its increased mid-bass presence and that the Z1R veered into shoutiness for me at times (Creedence Clearwater Revival is a great example of where this can often happen).

Here is a great article on the matter.
 
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Jul 11, 2021 at 10:09 AM Post #1,623 of 82,285
Absolutely loving this album today:

Edit: Looks like it does not support playback on other websites...

For those interested -

Toumani Diabaté with Ballaké Sissoko - New Ancient Strings


Very rhythmic and cyclical Kora playing with strong L/R channel separation. Listening to this from my MX64 ear buds stage feels wider than Traillii but with exceptional DD timbre.


Edit 2: very glad you enjoyed the Traillii, I remember my first time...it was special! :wink:
 
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Jul 11, 2021 at 10:14 AM Post #1,624 of 82,285
Absolutely loving this album today:




Very rhythmic and cyclical Kora playing with strong L/R channel separation. Listening to this from my MX64 ear buds stage feels wider than Traillii but with exceptional DD timbre.


Edit: very glad you enjoyed the Traillii, I remember my first time...it was special! :wink:


Can't see the video unfortunately :frowning2:
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 10:16 AM Post #1,625 of 82,285
PSA-- acknowledging that there is a difference between "Eastern (ie., Chifi)" tuning and "western" tuning in IEMs does not make one a racist or imply racism. It has been a very useful distinction for me to make when it comes to trying to understand different people's tuning and listening preferences and where they are coming from when commenting on an IEM. I first encountered the idea a couple years ago on Discord when I was told emphatically and conclusively that the IER Z1R was a superior IEM to the Campfire Solaris because the former "makes my JPOP & KPOP sound better". A lot of what it boils down to I think is that much Western music (rock, rap, rhythm & blues, jazz, funk etc. etc.) has its DNA in the mid-bass & lower mids. Conversely a lot of Eastern music (JPOP, KPOP etc.) has much of its DNA in the upper mids/lower treble...and these different ideals are clearly reflected in different tunings of various IEMs. To clinch the point, at the time I first heard them both my preference was for the Solaris in large part due to its increased mid-bass presence and that the Z1R veered into shoutiness for me at times (Creedence Clearwater Revival is a great example of where this can often happen).

Here is a great article on the matter.
I Totally agree my friend.
My preferences are more Eastern side, so for me z1r en rs10 are my to go iems, but I have to admit that if western signature were my preferences, your top 10 will be without doubt, my top 10.
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 10:19 AM Post #1,626 of 82,285
Can't see the video unfortunately :frowning2:

For some reason the album doesn't support playback via other websites. Have edited with album title if anyone is interested! :)
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 10:24 AM Post #1,627 of 82,285
Absolutely loving this album today:

Edit: Looks like it does not support playback on other websites...

For those interested -

Toumani Diabaté with Ballaké Sissoko - New Ancient Strings


Very rhythmic and cyclical Kora playing with strong L/R channel separation. Listening to this from my MX64 ear buds stage feels wider than Traillii but with exceptional DD timbre.


Edit 2: very glad you enjoyed the Traillii, I remember my first time...it was special! :wink:
Ballake’s album Djourou is simply astounding with the Bird and 1A.
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 11:03 AM Post #1,629 of 82,285
Far Side is absolutely amazing...so many good ones.

This is one of my favorites:

1625957162609.png

lol!

Here's another old fave of mine:

Screen Shot 2021-07-11 at 7.10.09 AM.png
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 11:54 AM Post #1,630 of 82,285
PSA-- acknowledging that there is a difference between "Eastern (ie., Chifi)" tuning and "western" tuning in IEMs does not make one a racist or imply racism. It has been a very useful distinction for me to make when it comes to trying to understand different people's tuning and listening preferences and where they are coming from when commenting on an IEM. I first encountered the idea a couple years ago on Discord when I was told emphatically and conclusively that the IER Z1R was a superior IEM to the Campfire Solaris because the former "makes my JPOP & KPOP sound better". A lot of what it boils down to I think is that much Western music (rock, rap, rhythm & blues, jazz, funk etc. etc.) has its DNA in the mid-bass & lower mids. Conversely a lot of Eastern music (JPOP, KPOP etc.) has much of its DNA in the upper mids/lower treble...and these different ideals are clearly reflected in different tunings of various IEMs.

IEMs tuned in the "western" direction often can sound "muddy" to those who prefer a more eastern tuning, and conversely IEMs tuned in the "eastern" direction can sound shouty and fatiguing up top (and somewhat thin down low) to those who prefer a more western tuning. At the time I first heard both the Solaris & Z1R back to back my ultimate preference was for the Solaris at the time in large part due to its increased mid-bass presence and that the Z1R veered into shoutiness for me at times (Creedence Clearwater Revival is a great example of where this can often happen).

Here is a great article on the matter.

Acknowledging different tunings does not make one racist or imply racism, yes. But making assumptions about one's musical tastes and preferences based purely on their race and ethnicity, and subsequently assigning worth to their opinions, that is absolutely racism.

I've been on the receiving end of that manner of racism for years and still goes on today despite me laying out my playlists on the table. "He's Asian with Asian tastes so his opinion on <insert Western IEM here> shouldn't be taken seriously." And that's disregarding the fact that my music library consists of traditional "Western" genres like hip-hop, soul, groove, jazz, disco, RnB, rock, and not to forget the ocassional Top-40 hits from America.

Is the concept itself racist? No. Do people use it to fulfil racist agendas? Absolutely.
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 11:59 AM Post #1,631 of 82,285
PSA-- acknowledging that there is a difference between "Eastern (ie., Chifi)" tuning and "western" tuning in IEMs does not make one a racist or imply racism. It has been a very useful distinction for me to make when it comes to trying to understand different people's tuning and listening preferences and where they are coming from when commenting on an IEM. I first encountered the idea a couple years ago on Discord when I was told emphatically and conclusively that the IER Z1R was a superior IEM to the Campfire Solaris because the former "makes my JPOP & KPOP sound better". A lot of what it boils down to I think is that much Western music (rock, rap, rhythm & blues, jazz, funk etc. etc.) has its DNA in the mid-bass & lower mids. Conversely a lot of Eastern music (JPOP, KPOP etc.) has much of its DNA in the upper mids/lower treble...and these different ideals are clearly reflected in different tunings of various IEMs.

IEMs tuned in the "western" direction often can sound "muddy" to those who prefer a more eastern tuning, and conversely IEMs tuned in the "eastern" direction can sound shouty and fatiguing up top (and somewhat thin down low) to those who prefer a more western tuning. At the time I first heard both the Solaris & Z1R back to back my ultimate preference was for the Solaris at the time in large part due to its increased mid-bass presence and that the Z1R veered into shoutiness for me at times (Creedence Clearwater Revival is a great example of where this can often happen).

Here is a great article on the matter.
Me as universal recipient AB blood type:
balls.png

Apparently there are many more people with AB blood type in the east than in the west. The reason why remains a mystery.. Could it be that our inherent biological nature is interlinked with the culture it grew up in, making it not so 'inherent' after all?
blue.png
:gs1000smile::beyersmile::L3000::darthsmile::dt880smile::o2smile::ksc75smile::k701smile:

Absolutely loving this album today:

Edit: Looks like it does not support playback on other websites...

For those interested -

Toumani Diabaté with Ballaké Sissoko - New Ancient Strings


Very rhythmic and cyclical Kora playing with strong L/R channel separation. Listening to this from my MX64 ear buds stage feels wider than Traillii but with exceptional DD timbre.


Edit 2: very glad you enjoyed the Traillii, I remember my first time...it was special! :wink:
Man, you have a sexy exotic taste :) Current;y listening as the strings felt like they're in front of me on the Isa. Creepy how good and surreal these were recorded/mixed and sound


Here's another from Senegal to blow your mind
 
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Jul 11, 2021 at 12:12 PM Post #1,632 of 82,285
Thank-you for responding!

But making assumptions about one's musical tastes and preferences based purely on their race and ethnicity, and subsequently assigning worth to their opinions, that is absolutely racism.

Responding to the bolded part-- nothing I have said, written or implied has been based on your ethnicity and race. All my conclusions about anything do to with your professional work & the opinions, preferences and biases that motivate it has been gleaned from 1) taking in your impressions & rankings over the course of a couple years, 2) listening to your IEM, the Dusk and 3) observing your "target curve" as posted on your graph data base, especially as it relates to the Dusk.

RE 1) The IER Z1R, the IEM you are most publicly associated with, has a decidedly eastern tuning, which I have often noted and described as the primary reason I don't own one anymore.

RE 2) The IEM you helped tuned, the Dusk, (which I think can be taken as some sort of "statement piece") has a decidedly Eastern tuning.

RE 3) Given how closely the FR of your published target curve resembles that of the Dusk and taking in 1) I find it quite a logical conclusions that your tastes, at least in part, fall decidedly on the "Eastern" end of the spectrum.

I'm not making any objective value statements or that any particular target curve is objectively better than any other-- there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I've been on the receiving end of that manner of racism for years and still goes on today despite me laying out my playlists on the table. "He's Asian with Asian tastes so his opinion on <insert Western IEM here> shouldn't be taken seriously." And that's disregarding the fact that my music library consists of traditional "Western" genres like hip-hop, soul, groove, jazz, disco, RnB, rock, and not to forget the ocassional Top-40 hits from America.

Is the concept itself racist? No. Do people use it to fulfil racist agendas? Absolutely.

Respectfully, and being fully aware of the nature of this often cesspool of a world we live in, I have no doubt that you have experienced racism, and that I truly lament. That said I don't think it can be reasonably claimed that anything I have said or written can be rightfully classified as racist or as being motivated by racism. I am happy to have specific examples brought out, here, publicly, if anyone disagrees.

Thank-you again for your response.
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 12:26 PM Post #1,633 of 82,285
Responding to the bolded part-- nothing I have said, written or implied has been based on your ethnicity and race. All my conclusions about anything do to with your professional work & the opinions, preferences and biases that motivate it has been gleaned from 1) taking in your impressions & rankings over the course of a couple years, 2) listening to your IEM, the Dusk and 3) observing your "target curve" as posted on your graph data base, especially as it relates to the Dusk.

The problem here is that I have no made a single mention of any kind of K-pop, J-pop, or what you consider as "Asian genres" so I can only reasonably assume that you made these links purely on the basis of my ethnicity.

For the record, I have written about my musical tastes here. And the songs I had specifically listed is as follows:

Hotel California, Hell Freezes Over (Soft rock)
Britney Spears - Toxic (US Pop)
BEP - Don't Phunk With My Heart (US Pop)
Green Day- Holiday (Punk rock)
LMAO - Party Rock Anthem (US Pop)
Maplestory BGM (Various)
PES - Spiral 2005/Phunkadelic Fantasy (Funk)
Burnout OST (Punk rock)
Ridge Racer - Disco Ball/Naked Glow (Funk-Jazz)
DJ Max OST (Various, mostly EDM)
Drift City/Skidrush OST (Various, mostly electronica)
Ace Attorney OST (Orchestral/Jazz big band)
Primary - Seethru (Hip-hop)
Baechigi (Hip-hop)
BewhY - International Wave (Hip-hop)
Earth, Wind & Fire - December (RnB/funk/soul/disco)
Al Green - Let's Stay Together (RnB/soul)
Theme from New York, New York (Vocal jazz)
Boney M. - Sunny (funk/disco)

Do let me know where you've seen my musical tastes being linked to "Asian pop", and I'll gladly take action to correct your source.

RE 1) The IER Z1R, the IEM you are most publicly associated with, has a decidedly eastern tuning, which I have often noted and described as the primary reason I don't own one anymore.

RE 2) The IEM you helped tuned, the Dusk, (which I think can be taken as some sort of "statement piece") has a decidedly Eastern tuning.

RE 3) Given how closely the FR of your published target curve resembles that of the Dusk and taking in 1) I find it quite a logical conclusions that your tastes, at least in part, fall decidedly on the "Eastern" end of the spectrum.

What makes an IEM "Eastern" or "Western"? This whole more-or-less of lower/upper mids classification is only relevant if there is a baseline.

Perhaps all the IEMs you've listed have a neutral amount of upper mids to me. But that is to me, and I have always acknowledged that. Now you say that there is some greater authority that determines if a tuning has more or less relative to some reference. "Decidedly Eastern"? Who decided that? Etymotic? Sean Olive? Some guy on the internet?

My point is that this whole East versus West thing is super arbitrary and only serves to deepen the divide in what I'm seeing is an already fractured community. Splitting up the hobby even further into non-correlated geographical aspects is not helping.
 
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Jul 11, 2021 at 12:40 PM Post #1,634 of 82,285
I knew it, the harman research and corresponding IEM target is china's secret mission to force their idea of what IEM should sound like upon all of our western ears. Don't let that happen guys. Be resistant and avoid those fierce upper mids.
 
Jul 11, 2021 at 1:27 PM Post #1,635 of 82,285
FYI - Harman International is a California-based company with most of the subjects being US Americans, though they did do a small study with other countries and didnt have any significance in the tuning choices. It's captured in one of his papers.
 

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