THE WATERCOOLER HEADPHONE EDITION – Headphones, Amps, DACs, and desktop/home audio related – a freewheeling discussion of gear, impressions, music, and musings.

Dec 17, 2024 at 7:53 PM Post #6,226 of 11,580
I'd like to thank Jon @Aetherhole, for such an eloquent write up!

It's always a fun experience trying out new gear and how it interacts with everything. At the end of the day it always comes down to pairings and personal preference. During our rather fun listening day I think we both settled on some of the same opinions. I think the Rockna with the Immanis was the best sound on certain tracks, yet also the worst sound on others. The MMT felt like a direct upgrade of the May, it shares a similar tonality. The added detail and the slightly thicker mid range presentation was the absolute all around winner with the Immanis. While the May was no slouch it didn't quite manage to keep up with the other two, even with HQplayer. Granted comparing the MMT and WD feels like splitting hairs.

While for my preference I prefer the sound of the Rockna with the OG Sus, and d8kp.

At least I've now convinced Jon of a xlr upgrade! The old standby's have been bested!
 
Dec 17, 2024 at 8:23 PM Post #6,227 of 11,580
Dec 17, 2024 at 9:12 PM Post #6,228 of 11,580
Just first have to say how awesome this community is. I’ve made numerous friends and genuinely look forward to coming to head-fi to interact online with everyone. Because of the connections I’ve made, I’ve been blessed to listen to things that I would probably never have an opportunity to listen to.

Yesterday was one of those instances. @akgb and I had a fun opportunity to listen and compare a couple of great DACs yesterday. He brought over his Rockna Wavedream Edition XLR so we could compare to the Mola Mola Tambaqui and Holo Audio May KTE. It was a blast and we spent the better part of 8 hours listening back and forth.

IMG_1438.jpeg

We used my Cayin Soul 170HA as our amp. For headphones, we were using the RAAL Immanis, Hifiman Susvara OG, Final Audio D8000 Pro, and for kicks and giggles Austin brought over the Apos x Audio Technica r70x Refine.

So, let me get this first out of the way, the May KTE, which has been my baby for a while now, is outperformed by both the MMT and the WD Ed. We tried the May NOS with no HQP and we also tried with HQP up to 1.5mHz. Utilizing HQP, detail retrieval and spatial presentation gets closer to the MMT and WD Ed, but you lose out on a large amount of overall dynamics. Going back and forth, we both found it’s akin using a volume normalization or a dynamics limiter. It just comes across as more polite. You gain a lot of detail through HQP, but that loss in dynamics was significant enough that it would be a really tough trade off. Outside of HQP and using the May and NOS mode straight, dynamics were on similar levels of the MMT and WD Ed. The overall sound signature in comparison is like a slightly downward tilting frequency response. Treble is softer and the bass is just a little thicker and bloomier than either the MMT or WD Ed. Soundstage and micro details on the May (NOS no HQP) are reduced pretty noticeably as we switched between the three.

With the MMT and the WD Ed, overall we found the dynamics and detail retrieval to trade blows with one another. The biggest difference we concluded came down to the presentation of the detail. There are differences in soundstage presentation, too.

On the Rockna Wavedream Edition, the leading edge on detail articulation seems to be more pronounced. This ends up giving the initial perception that there is more detail, but upon listening I’ve discovered that it isn’t that it is giving more detail, it’s just putting it more in your face and maybe a bit more aggressively more consistently. It also just had a little bit more bite to the sound. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what you are ultimately going after. It also made a difference which headphones we were listening to. For example, on the Final D8K Pro and Susvara OG, the extra touch of bite and aggression ended up being a good thing across the board. However, with the Immanis, it ended up being more of a rollercoaster of an experience, where some of the tracks sounded great because of that leading edge, then some tracks it ended up being a little harder to listen to. It made the Immanis sound a touch brighter on some songs. The adage “too much of a good thing” was something we mentioned. Soundstage-wise, the Wavedream ended up being wider, width-wise by a bit compared to the Mola Mola, but closer in forward presentation.

On the Mola Mola Tambaqui, as I mentioned, all the detail information that is there, like the WD Ed, but the presentation was not so brash. Sometimes detail was even more noticeable, then sometimes more recessed, but still present. I think that has to do with two different aspects, one being the soundstage differences and the tonality differences between the two DACs. For example, the track “Dance is the Answer” by Dubdog, Ruback, Ticon, and Raja Ram, there are birds chirping in the background that you can hear. The difference between the MMT and WD Ed, the sound of the birds chirping are both present, but on the MMT they sound further away. On the WD Ed. the birds chirping seem more in line with the other track layers. I do think the MMT, despite having a little bit less lateral width, has a noticeable amount more forward depth. So it sounds more circular versus maybe a little bit more of an oval or football shape on the WD Ed.

Timbrally, the difference between the two is also noticeable. The Wavedream Edition is just a little bit more thin-sounding versus the Mola Mola, which had a little bit more weight to the sound. Austin and I agreed it sounded a little more analogue. With the D8K Pro, the WD Edition was a bit better pairing because the Final is a little bit more of a thicker-sounding headphone overall. I personally found I preferred the MMT’s tonality more for the Susvara and Immanis.

Overall, I do have to state that the law of diminishing returns is very, very much a thing. The May is still a great, great dac at its price point. The amount of improvement that we noticed, we are comparing DACs that are about two (or more) times the price of the May. With the Rockna and Mola Mola, it’s not a huge, huge difference. When I articulate these differences, I’m not talking night and day differences. I’m thinking it’s in percentages of difference where we’ve only been able to discern from swapping back and forth. Austin and I concluded, both the MMT and WD Ed are fantastic DACs and one is going to be better only given specific source chain needs. My preference still prefers the MMT over the Rockna and Austin agrees with the Immanis, the MMT is a better pairing. The slightly more aggressive nature is better suited for the Final and Hifiman. Both, do macro dynamics and detail extremely well, though, so you’re not going to be missing out on either by going one direction or another.

Side note— we also tried the headphone out of the MMT with the Susvara and it does decently well, though you do get less bass from it. Immanis is the same situation. Though, these are two hard to drive headphones, so anything easier to drive will actually be decent, so those considering an all-in-one solution, the MMT is a worthwhile consideration! I’ve tried the AK x EE Novus out of it and it does really well. The only problem is the headphone outs are on the back of the unit. So I am probably going to get an XLR to 4.4mm adapter to run from the back to the front to run my IEMs directly off of it.

Non-sound related note, the MMT is TINY compared to the Rockna and the May. So if space saving is a consideration, MMT is the clear winner in spades. The Rockna and May are chunky boys. Stacking the MMT on top of the Rockna made me grin just at how small it is.

And finally, again just for kicks and giggles, the Apos x AT headphone was a fun little small distraction. For $300 it sounds better than a lot of other headphones in its price bracket. It does seem to scale with good source, but realistically, it’s not super resolving. It’s not overly dark or veiled, but it’s got a decent sound profile. It’s lightweight, too, being mostly just plastic. Cups are a little small for my ears, but still pretty comfortable otherwise.
Thanks for this great write up, I share your exact thoughts on May KTE vs Wavedream edition even the description of May’s presentation sort of a downward slope as you say.

Never heard the MMT but I’m genuinely curious and the smaller form factor is nice.
 
Dec 17, 2024 at 9:50 PM Post #6,229 of 11,580
Just first have to say how awesome this community is. I’ve made numerous friends and genuinely look forward to coming to head-fi to interact online with everyone. Because of the connections I’ve made, I’ve been blessed to listen to things that I would probably never have an opportunity to listen to.

Yesterday was one of those instances. @akgb and I had a fun opportunity to listen and compare a couple of great DACs yesterday. He brought over his Rockna Wavedream Edition XLR so we could compare to the Mola Mola Tambaqui and Holo Audio May KTE. It was a blast and we spent the better part of 8 hours listening back and forth.

IMG_1438.jpeg

We used my Cayin Soul 170HA as our amp. For headphones, we were using the RAAL Immanis, Hifiman Susvara OG, Final Audio D8000 Pro, and for kicks and giggles Austin brought over the Apos x Audio Technica r70x Refine.

So, let me get this first out of the way, the May KTE, which has been my baby for a while now, is outperformed by both the MMT and the WD Ed. We tried the May NOS with no HQP and we also tried with HQP up to 1.5mHz. Utilizing HQP, detail retrieval and spatial presentation gets closer to the MMT and WD Ed, but you lose out on a large amount of overall dynamics. Going back and forth, we both found it’s akin using a volume normalization or a dynamics limiter. It just comes across as more polite. You gain a lot of detail through HQP, but that loss in dynamics was significant enough that it would be a really tough trade off. Outside of HQP and using the May and NOS mode straight, dynamics were on similar levels of the MMT and WD Ed. The overall sound signature in comparison is like a slightly downward tilting frequency response. Treble is softer and the bass is just a little thicker and bloomier than either the MMT or WD Ed. Soundstage and micro details on the May (NOS no HQP) are reduced pretty noticeably as we switched between the three.

With the MMT and the WD Ed, overall we found the dynamics and detail retrieval to trade blows with one another. The biggest difference we concluded came down to the presentation of the detail. There are differences in soundstage presentation, too.

On the Rockna Wavedream Edition, the leading edge on detail articulation seems to be more pronounced. This ends up giving the initial perception that there is more detail, but upon listening I’ve discovered that it isn’t that it is giving more detail, it’s just putting it more in your face and maybe a bit more aggressively more consistently. It also just had a little bit more bite to the sound. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what you are ultimately going after. It also made a difference which headphones we were listening to. For example, on the Final D8K Pro and Susvara OG, the extra touch of bite and aggression ended up being a good thing across the board. However, with the Immanis, it ended up being more of a rollercoaster of an experience, where some of the tracks sounded great because of that leading edge, then some tracks it ended up being a little harder to listen to. It made the Immanis sound a touch brighter on some songs. The adage “too much of a good thing” was something we mentioned. Soundstage-wise, the Wavedream ended up being wider, width-wise by a bit compared to the Mola Mola, but closer in forward presentation.

On the Mola Mola Tambaqui, as I mentioned, all the detail information that is there, like the WD Ed, but the presentation was not so brash. Sometimes detail was even more noticeable, then sometimes more recessed, but still present. I think that has to do with two different aspects, one being the soundstage differences and the tonality differences between the two DACs. For example, the track “Dance is the Answer” by Dubdog, Ruback, Ticon, and Raja Ram, there are birds chirping in the background that you can hear. The difference between the MMT and WD Ed, the sound of the birds chirping are both present, but on the MMT they sound further away. On the WD Ed. the birds chirping seem more in line with the other track layers. I do think the MMT, despite having a little bit less lateral width, has a noticeable amount more forward depth. So it sounds more circular versus maybe a little bit more of an oval or football shape on the WD Ed.

Timbrally, the difference between the two is also noticeable. The Wavedream Edition is just a little bit more thin-sounding versus the Mola Mola, which had a little bit more weight to the sound. Austin and I agreed it sounded a little more analogue. With the D8K Pro, the WD Edition was a bit better pairing because the Final is a little bit more of a thicker-sounding headphone overall. I personally found I preferred the MMT’s tonality more for the Susvara and Immanis.

Overall, I do have to state that the law of diminishing returns is very, very much a thing. The May is still a great, great dac at its price point. The amount of improvement that we noticed, we are comparing DACs that are about two (or more) times the price of the May. With the Rockna and Mola Mola, it’s not a huge, huge difference. When I articulate these differences, I’m not talking night and day differences. I’m thinking it’s in percentages of difference where we’ve only been able to discern from swapping back and forth. Austin and I concluded, both the MMT and WD Ed are fantastic DACs and one is going to be better only given specific source chain needs. My preference still prefers the MMT over the Rockna and Austin agrees with the Immanis, the MMT is a better pairing. The slightly more aggressive nature is better suited for the Final and Hifiman. Both, do macro dynamics and detail extremely well, though, so you’re not going to be missing out on either by going one direction or another.

Side note— we also tried the headphone out of the MMT with the Susvara and it does decently well, though you do get less bass from it. Immanis is the same situation. Though, these are two hard to drive headphones, so anything easier to drive will actually be decent, so those considering an all-in-one solution, the MMT is a worthwhile consideration! I’ve tried the AK x EE Novus out of it and it does really well. The only problem is the headphone outs are on the back of the unit. So I am probably going to get an XLR to 4.4mm adapter to run from the back to the front to run my IEMs directly off of it.

Non-sound related note, the MMT is TINY compared to the Rockna and the May. So if space saving is a consideration, MMT is the clear winner in spades. The Rockna and May are chunky boys. Stacking the MMT on top of the Rockna made me grin just at how small it is.

And finally, again just for kicks and giggles, the Apos x AT headphone was a fun little small distraction. For $300 it sounds better than a lot of other headphones in its price bracket. It does seem to scale with good source, but realistically, it’s not super resolving. It’s not overly dark or veiled, but it’s got a decent sound profile. It’s lightweight, too, being mostly just plastic. Cups are a little small for my ears, but still pretty comfortable otherwise.

That’s a great writeup! I was also thinking about the MMT a couple of years ago, and my other option was the Lumin P1. I didn’t get a chance to listen to both because it’s tough to audition high-end components in my country, so I’d have to rely on reviews and impressions. I encountered the below review of P1 & MMT:

https://www.luminmusic.com/downloads/LUMIN-P1-Audiophile-Magazine-review-June-2022.pdf

and this is one of the reviews that made me gravitate more towards P1. I already have a very large DSD library, and the fibre optic input is quite appealing, so I went with P1 and completely enamored by the sound. Perhaps if you have the chance you can also try to audition the P1. But congrats on the MMT, I’m pretty sure it’s one hell of a DAC!
 
Dec 17, 2024 at 11:06 PM Post #6,230 of 11,580
Thanks for this great write up, I share your exact thoughts on May KTE vs Wavedream edition even the description of May’s presentation sort of a downward slope as you say.

Never heard the MMT but I’m genuinely curious and the smaller form factor is nice.

Thank you! As Austin just mentioned above, it’s going to be splitting hairs on differences between the MMT and the Wavedream Edition and going to be a matter of preference at that.

That’s a great writeup! I was also thinking about the MMT a couple of years ago, and my other option was the Lumin P1. I didn’t get a chance to listen to both because it’s tough to audition high-end components in my country, so I’d have to rely on reviews and impressions. I encountered the below review of P1 & MMT:

https://www.luminmusic.com/downloads/LUMIN-P1-Audiophile-Magazine-review-June-2022.pdf

and this is one of the reviews that made me gravitate more towards P1. I already have a very large DSD library, and the fibre optic input is quite appealing, so I went with P1 and completely enamored by the sound. Perhaps if you have the chance you can also try to audition the P1. But congrats on the MMT, I’m pretty sure it’s one hell of a DAC!

Thank you! I’ve come across that review, too, and definitely the use case differences will be a big factor in purchases and preferences. I definitely want to try the Lumin as that’s come up in discussions before, too. At this point though, differences are getting more and more subtle.
 
Dec 17, 2024 at 11:08 PM Post #6,231 of 11,580
I'd like to thank Jon @Aetherhole, for such an eloquent write up!

It's always a fun experience trying out new gear and how it interacts with everything. At the end of the day it always comes down to pairings and personal preference. During our rather fun listening day I think we both settled on some of the same opinions. I think the Rockna with the Immanis was the best sound on certain tracks, yet also the worst sound on others. The MMT felt like a direct upgrade of the May, it shares a similar tonality. The added detail and the slightly thicker mid range presentation was the absolute all around winner with the Immanis. While the May was no slouch it didn't quite manage to keep up with the other two, even with HQplayer. Granted comparing the MMT and WD feels like splitting hairs.

While for my preference I prefer the sound of the Rockna with the OG Sus, and d8kp.

At least I've now convinced Jon of a xlr upgrade! The old standby's have been bested!

Austin, always a pleasure, sir! Yep, looking forward to receiving my XLR order now that I’ve gotten a chance to go back and forth listening to them.
 
Dec 17, 2024 at 11:16 PM Post #6,232 of 11,580
Thank you! I’ve come across that review, too, and definitely the use case differences will be a big factor in purchases and preferences. I definitely want to try the Lumin as that’s come up in discussions before, too. At this point though, differences are getting more and more subtle.

You'd be surprised how much a streamer can impact your sound now that you're on the MMT level. Even on the modest Yggdrasil+ MIB, there's a significant difference between using a cleaner and well clocked/stable jitter stream from my SP2000 DAP (Roon Endpoint) compared to just a DDC from a laptop (both on USB). SP2000 increases black background, instrument focus, the rounded transients now have the correct weight and snap on them, microdetails that are much easier to pickup and a more holographic soundstage. It might be at this point the Holo Red is now your bottleneck ;)
 
Dec 17, 2024 at 11:44 PM Post #6,234 of 11,580
You'd be surprised how much a streamer can impact your sound now that you're on the MMT level.
I was pretty shocked going from a Bluesound Node 2 to a Bryston BDP-2. And that was with a Sonnet Morpheus- hardly a state of the art DAC, but a very good one.

Music became a lot more emotive, which I didn’t expect. Certainly going from a very high-quality optical connection to a an excellent balanced AES/EBU connection mattered too, but there was a big leap forward in quality.
 
Dec 17, 2024 at 11:49 PM Post #6,235 of 11,580
I was pretty shocked going from a Bluesound Node 2 to a Bryston BDP-2. And that was with a Sonnet Morpheus- hardly a state of the art DAC, but a very good one.

Music became a lot more emotive, which I didn’t expect. Certainly going from a very high-quality optical connection to a an excellent balanced AES/EBU connection mattered too, but there was a big leap forward in quality.

Oh yes for sure! We sure can't escape the audiophilia that is originally from analog (MC cartridge rolling) and in the now digital case (streamer rolling) hehe
 
Dec 18, 2024 at 5:10 AM Post #6,236 of 11,580
Dodgey seller in the classifieds’Morfdy’ who mods that thread or who to warn of the user? Selling 2 high end items at ridiculous prices. Yesterday it was only the lcd4, today his got a new listing for a chord tt2, for £1500. I asked him to verify and suddenly his gone silent.
 
Dec 18, 2024 at 6:26 AM Post #6,237 of 11,580
Dodgey seller in the classifieds’Morfdy’ who mods that thread or who to warn of the user? Selling 2 high end items at ridiculous prices. Yesterday it was only the lcd4, today his got a new listing for a chord tt2, for £1500. I asked him to verify and suddenly his gone silent.

The Head-Fi moderators. Just click the button at the top right above the listing with the down arrow, and select “Report”. You can then type them a message and submit.

IMG_2439.jpeg
 
Dec 18, 2024 at 7:43 AM Post #6,238 of 11,580
Dodgey seller in the classifieds’Morfdy’ who mods that thread or who to warn of the user?
Awesome, thanks for the heads-up. I'm a Nigerian prince with my vast fortune tied up in an overseas account and I need someone to access it for me. I can transfer the funds to their current/checking account. Sweet!
 
Dec 18, 2024 at 8:10 AM Post #6,239 of 11,580
I suppose this is the best place to ask this question since I see a ton of experience in this room. I need a desktop amp for TOTL IEMs with a no-hiss noise floor, 3.5 OR 4.4mm out and that will have no problem handling any headphones I may throw at it should I decide to get into them in the future.

My situation is I am currently an IEM guy, been running a Hugo2 + ALO CDM (on/off sometimes hugo2 solo) with various IEMs over the years, currently have APX SE + EA Centurion.

I love the clarity of the Hugo2 combined with the Tube goodness of my ALO CDM running some special tubes that cost too much. I love a warm, highly resolved sound with good note weight and impactful bass that doesn't bleed and congest. I mostly prefer vocals to be neutral/forward.

I have had the Hugo2 + CDM since Hugo2 came out which is a very long time. I mainly use my Macbook pro as a source.

I am the type to buy once cry once, I dont spend a lot of money trying various things I just want to go straight to the top based on my sound preference and get on with the music as I'm a very busy person.

I am consdiering the WA24/WA23 LUNA(although heard bad things about a scandal with a previous model and using cheap components), Envy, Red October XL, 465 and Chord Dave, etc. IDK a lot about tube amps but prioritize my sound preferences and a low noise floor. I love tubes. If anyone can make recs I would appreciate it, TY.
Woo is a solid company and based here in the US. If trade policy gets crazy buying from overseas could become even more costly that it is now. If anything your considering is made here it might be worth adding that into your deliberations
 
Dec 18, 2024 at 8:13 AM Post #6,240 of 11,580
Woo is a solid company and based here in the US. If trade policy gets crazy buying from overseas could become even more costly that it is now. If anything your considering is made here it might be worth adding that into your deliberations
In the UK, we have to pay 20% VAT and custom fees for importing something directly from America so it's very costly as Woo don't have UK distributors.
 

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