THE WATERCOOLER HEADPHONE EDITION – Headphones, Amps, DACs, and desktop/home audio related – a freewheeling discussion of gear, impressions, music, and musings.

[normie610]

It was paired again with A&K daps in Munich this year and a yonger friend of mine mentioned that it had way too much treble, he knows Immanis from my MMT chain and never had an issue with its treble before. I believe Immanis reacts to your chain similarly to Susvara if not more, with certain sources there could be a problem with treble for sure, but I see it more as a chain, not a hp issue tbh.

Couldn't agree more. DAC is probably the most important component in Immanis' chain.

 

[Hiker816]

What is the general consensus regarding the Abyss 1266 and the Immanis. Does it make any sense owning both? I read controversial things about that. Some say they are too close others say they are different enough.

Others have covered it well, but I find them quite different and to be complimentary and well worth having both for that reason.

The subbass of the 1266TC is also better than the subbass of the Immanis, which drops off below 30Hz

I found the subbass on the Immanis to extend lower and have better texture. That's with the original stock pads and a gap with the Abyss, though. With the new pads Abyss introduced and a seal, might be different?

I mean it really depends on your needs. Even with EQ Immanis just wont give you that speaker like bass size and visceral impact of 1266 TC nor will 1266 TC give you the resolution, speed, layering, mids, treble and bass texture of Immais. They are complimentary in a way.

Without EQ, at least, I hear them the same way.

That's Just wrong. The 1266TC is midbass focused and Drops Off way earlier than Immanis.

It does have way more quantity Overall, which is probably why you don't realize that.

I hear it exactly the same way. 100%

Is it really that polarising? Its probably a far less polarising hp than a Susvara, few people mentioned to have treble issues early on with some chains, but thats fairly common with most headphones or what exactly is polarising about it to your ear?

Also completely agree with this. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of people who have heard it have very positive impressions. And most of the few who did not changed their minds after getting more hours on it. Obviously, no single headphone is perfect for everyone, but there seems to be quite a consensus on the Immanis.

 

[Exekuhtor]

With the new pads Abyss introduced and a seal, might be different?

I tested that with the old pads. With the new ones the insane midbass bump vanishes since there is no sealbreak anymore (but the midrange sounds more balanced). But yeah, the TC for me has a stronger subbass than the Immanis. But i also spend a lot of time rotating the pads and adjusting the headband to find my personal perfect fit.

 

[realmccoy]

Completely depends on the headphone.

I know what you mean. I'm now listening the AC straight from my cayin N8 dap tube mode, and the ZMF still performs well (85-90% of what it can on desktop).
Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[GoldenSound]

Is it really that polarising? Its probably a far less polarising hp than a Susvara, few people mentioned to have treble issues early on with some chains, but thats fairly common with most headphones or what exactly is polarising about it to your ear?

I'd say so. The two main aspects being that there is a peak in the upper treble (about 11khz) which is quite bothersome to some, basically inaudible to others. For me I'm a little in the middle on it where it's noticeable but not really a 'problem'. Friend of mine finds it quite problematic and another doesn't hear it at all. It'll just depend on your HRTF.

The other aspect just being that the overall tuning has some quirks like quite a sizeable 2khz dip and overall different shaped 2-6khz region which some people enjoy and some don't. It has the benefit of making it sound very big which is nice, I like it for certain genres but found for things with male vocals in particular it made them a bit thin/nasally.

 

[Leto Dal]

I'd say so. The two main aspects being that there is a peak in the upper treble (about 11khz) which is quite bothersome to some, basically inaudible to others. For me I'm a little in the middle on it where it's noticeable but not really a 'problem'. Friend of mine finds it quite problematic and another doesn't hear it at all. It'll just depend on your HRTF.

The other aspect just being that the overall tuning has some quirks like quite a sizeable 2khz dip and overall different shaped 2-6khz region which some people enjoy and some don't. It has the benefit of making it sound very big which is nice, I like it for certain genres but found for things with male vocals in particular it made them a bit thin/nasally.

I see thanks for the break down.

Would you say GSE Aperio is more conventionally tuned? I heard it in Munich and am curious what your approach on it was, especially having Immanis as direct competetion in the summit segment.

 

[GoldenSound]

I see thanks for the break down.

Would you say GSE Aperio is more conventionally tuned? I heard it in Munich and am curious what your approach on it was, especially having Immanis as direct competetion in the summit segment.

I'd like to avoid commenting too much on direct comparisons between it and other headphones if possible and leave that to other listeners, as it probably wouldn't be appropriate for me to do so.
What I could say though is that the GSE Aperio does go for a response that is very close to a DF HRTF response, or how your head/ears actually modify sound in the real world. Not specifically a particular rig or in fact my own though, I had several other people (plus a fair bit of other data) helping me make fine adjustments during development and worked to ensure that the specific things I was going for worked across a range of listeners heads.

I wanted to aim for realism (both in timbre and spatial presentation) as much as possible given as with the resources Warwick was willing to put into the new drivers and analog boards in particular we were able to make some quite complex and specific changes (the difference between the Aperio GSE and original Aperio is quite substantial, with differences of 5-8dB in a few areas). With some slight tweaks to taste of course like a bit of a subbass lift below 70hz to give it some extra 'oomph' for more dynamic music , as well as a slightly lower ear gain than what you might expect from a harman response or something. Similar to the immanis actually, although not quite as low as that and also different in shape/profile

 

[CharlyBrown]

1266TC still has the best bass that you can get out of any headphone, it really shines on a powerful and warm tube amp that fills out and enriches its midrange.

The 1266TC is still the very best when it comes to bass reproduction, Immanis is more of an allrounder and has better technicalities (details / speed etc). But the 1266TC is still one of the best three planars that exist.

I don't EQ. The 1266TC does bass like no other headphone, it's like a real subwoofer bass. You need to hear it to believe it. It surpasses anything else in headphones that exists imo (maybe not texture and details, but i'm talking about the visceral impact, dynamics etc).
Immanis is great in its bass, the 1266TC is absolutely unique.
The subbass of the 1266TC is also better than the subbass of the Immanis, which drops off below 30Hz.

Thanks but I totally forgot to mention that I love subbass, not a fan of any mid bass elevation, at all.

I mean it really depends on your needs. Even with EQ Immanis just wont give you that speaker like bass size and visceral impact of 1266 TC nor will 1266 TC give you the resolution, speed, layering, mids, treble and bass texture of Immais. They are complimentary in a way. If you playlist benefits from what 1266 TC does - and you really cant live without, yeah its worth getting. As always, you will need an audition to find out.

I am now certain that Immanis +3db subbass shelf gives me everything I need!

That's Just wrong. The 1266TC is midbass focused and Drops Off way earlier than Immanis.

It does have way more quantity Overall, which is probably why you don't realize that.

If you eq the Immanis to the same quantity it has much better Bass with better Extension as well

Very helpful, helping me evaluating it for my personal taste!! I’m not a fan of midbass emphasis.

1266 is my go-to electronic headphone. The tuning is not well setup for genres that you want a focus on realism/timbral accuracy, but for "I want in-your-face detail and stupid bass" it's just great fun.
It's one of those headphones that is well worth having in any collection if you can afford it IMO. Though also worth noting it's very much a uniquely shaped midbass focus, you don't get a ton of subbass with it.

A slightly EQ'ed Susvara is much better for subbass

Immanis is one I'd say try to demo it if you can. It's more 'normal' sounding than the 1266, but still has some fairly significant tuning quirks that some people enjoy and some really don't. It's polarising, and you kinda just need to demo it yourself if possible rather than going based off others impressions.

Immanis also drops off into the subbass, but not as much, and lower down than the 1266.
Susvara is much flatter and extends basically linearly into the subbass but has a slightly lower overall bass profile than either of the other two. BUT, it does mean that a simple bass shelf gives you more and deeper reaching subbass than the 1266 or immanis. (I run it with the bass EQ on the Zahl HM1 set to +1, or Wandla Impact+ mode turned on)

Thank you, that is really not what I’m looking for (midbass). I should have clarified in my original question that I love only subbass. Anyways, your answer was very helpful erasing the 1266 from my bucket list!

First, I heard the Immanis on a £100K Viva setup. Second time on a regular setup with the Envy. On the £100K setup I felt this is a next level experience and nothing comes close. The Immanis simply trumps all previous headphones and sets a new standard for what is possible in headphone audio.
On the Envy the Immanis sounded more average, more 'normal'. More like a headphone and not like a next level experience I had on the summit-fi Viva chain.

I still think, Immanis is next level. Electrostat resolution but with proper weight, body and timbre. 1266 is nice, offering the best planar bass available, but in the mids it is a bit wonky, unnatural. I also couldn't live with its horrendous comfort qualities.
For musical enjoyment I would probably pick other TOTLs than the 1266, but the Immanis in the right super-summit-fi chain just trumps everything.
I cannot afford the Immanis in a super summit-fi chain, so I pick other headphones like the Caldera open to fulfil my needs on tubes. Caldera open with Grand Silver Palladium cable on the Aegis with a truly special and unique tube roll just bests systems for twice or even four times the price (Aperio) for me personally.

Using a headphone with a 100k amp might bring a lot of expectation bias and placebo to the experience. It would for me, no doubt.

I had a nice conversation with Aleksandar from RAAL in Munich last week. He said he likes the Immanis best with an Envy and Elrog TM tubes. Still expensive, but much more affordable than a 100k amp…

Others have covered it well, but I find them quite different and to be complimentary and well worth having both for that reason.


Also completely agree with this. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of people who have heard it have very positive impressions. And most of the few who did not changed their minds after getting more hours on it. Obviously, no single headphone is perfect for everyone, but there seems to be quite a consensus on the Immanis.

With a midbass emphasis, it will be complementary to the Immanis, for sure. For people who like that, it will probably a great addition. I don’t. For example, I tried the ZMF Atrium in Munich last week and I didn’t like it, at all, because of the midbass elevation. Each to their own, of course. I don’t even know why I don’t like midbass?!

 

[genefruit]

Thanks but I totally forgot to mention that I love subbass, not a fan of any mid bass elevation, at all.



I am now certain that Immanis +3db subbass shelf gives me everything I need!



Very helpful, helping me evaluating it for my personal taste!! I’m not a fan of midbass emphasis.



Thank you, that is really not what I’m looking for (midbass). I should have clarified in my original question that I love only subbass. Anyways, your answer was very helpful erasing the 1266 from my bucket list!



Using a headphone with a 100k amp might bring a lot of expectation bias and placebo to the experience. It would for me, no doubt.

I had a nice conversation with Aleksandar from RAAL in Munich last week. He said he likes the Immanis best with an Envy and Elrog TM tubes. Still expensive, but much more affordable than a 100k amp…



With a midbass emphasis, it will be complementary to the Immanis, for sure. For people who like that, it will probably a great addition. I don’t. For example, I tried the ZMF Atrium in Munich last week and I didn’t like it, at all, because of the midbass elevation. Each to their own, of course. I don’t even know why I don’t like midbass?!

as a casual observer, I see the term midbass being exchanged back and forth and I'm curious whether all parties are using the term in the same manner.

 

[Exekuhtor]

Thanks but I totally forgot to mention that I love subbass, not a fan of any mid bass elevation, at all.

The new pads solve that for the 1266TC.
But at that point you only listen to a normal headphone (no seal break).
I repeat: If you have not heard what this headphone can do in the bass, you won't believe it. It's a true subwoofer experience.
It's not bloaty in the mids at all like a Sony MDR-Z1R or so.

The very best subbass i've heard has the T+A Solitaire P (along with the TC). That one has a treble peak for me, along comfort problems.
It also goes in a somewhat similiar direction as the Immanis: Smooth, thinner midrange. I would not recommend it as a companion to the Immanis.

 

[perrew]

When you say mids, what frequency are you referring to? I have the MDR-Z1R driven by a SuSy Dynalo, I don't hear that as bloaty. Never heard a 1266TC so might be relatively speaking though.

 

[theveterans]

It was paired again with A&K daps in Munich this year and a yonger friend of mine mentioned that it had way too much treble, he knows Immanis from my MMT chain and never had an issue with its treble before. I believe Immanis reacts to your chain similarly to Susvara if not more, with certain sources there could be a problem with treble for sure, but I see it more as a chain, not a hp issue tbh.

A&K DAPs are meant to only drive low power IEMs not full size headphones. I find that their elevated treble can certainly work extremely well with IEMs since a lot of IEMs can't reproduce the upper air frequencies as much as full size headphones

 

[CharlyBrown]

Good points regarding mid bass! For me, or what I don't like, starts at around 100-125Hz and goes up to around 500Hz.

But googling images for mid bass frequency range, it says mid bass range is between 50-100Hz? I am sure I like a nice elevation below 100Hz but the real beauty lies in the sub 60Hz range for me.

 

[kajetanjazz]

But googling images for mid bass frequency range, it says mid bass range is between 50-100Hz? I am sure I like a nice elevation below 100Hz but the real beauty lies in the sub 60Hz range for me.

1266’s resonance peak lies at 70Hz from breaking the seal (the graph shows extreme example). @genefruit rightly points out if we have the same ”midbass” in mind

 

[fidgeraldo]

A&K DAPs are meant to only drive low power IEMs not full size headphones.

I have Kann Alpha, and as far as I remember, I had no issues listening to the full-size headphones.
I have to try it again with several different headphones, but somehow I have positive thoughts.

Cheers!