I am hoping to have an Envy AE in the somewhat near future and will do that comparison.
By the way, you can tube roll both of them. The advantage with the Riv is you only have to change one tube.
THE WATERCOOLER HEADPHONE EDITION – Headphones, Amps, DACs, and desktop/home audio related – a freewheeling discussion of gear, impressions, music, and musings.
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By the way, you can tube roll both of them. The advantage with the Riv is you only have to change one tube.
Price is a tricky topic to discuss because at the root of the question is the perception of value for money, and that is going to vary a lot by the person, their financial situation, and their concept of performance as it relates to headphones (or source gear). And my perspective is skewed as someone who's involved in TOTL headphones and might not be relevant to someone who doesn't have (or isn't willing) to spend that sort of money.
The approach I try to take is to evaluate the performance of a particular headphone (I'll call this headphone the DUT - device under test) across a variety of attributes (tonal balance, percussive impact and dynamics, spaciousness, openness, etc.) and try to create a rough ranking of the DUT against other headphones that I've heard and know well. From there, given those anchoring points, I can see if the price of the DUT fits with its performance (establishing its value). The value can be weighted against the various attributes and adjusted for preference. I am particular about spaciousness and openness in the sound, so I would weigh the DUT's performance in those attributes more when determining value. Someone who doesn't care about those attributes would use a different weighting and would come to a different value conclusion.
For the CRBN2, since I value spaciousness and openness a lot while valuing bass quantity and body less, it doesn't deliver as much of what I want vs the X9000, and it's also not as comfortable as the X9000. Given that they're basically the same price, I don't consider the CRBN2 worth the money for me because it plays second string to the X9000. For those who want bass though, the value proposition would be quite different.
A complication to this model would be things like dealbreakers and exceptional traits. Dealbreakers are obvious; if the DUT has one really significant flaw, then that hurts the value a lot more than a plain attribute comparison would suggest. My example would be the Yamaha YH-5000se. In a bunch of ways, its performance is worthy of a TOTL price. The imaging is really nice, the bass is powerful, the treble is inoffensive, and while the midrange is weird, it does offer an interesting presentation to the music. The physical construction and comfort are also top-notch. The problem is that pianos don't sound right on it. That a Yamaha headphone sounds wrong on pianos is wild, but I can't get over how weird it makes pianos sound. So that's a dealbreaker that hurts its value; I wouldn't spend anywhere close to $5K on it and I struggle to justify spending $2K on it.
Exceptional traits are how a headphone can justify a high price. This is mostly in terms of price margin; if the DUT had an exceptional or particularly compelling presentation, then I might think it's worth a price higher than an "objective" attribute comparison would imply. My example here would be the Meze Empyrean 2 vs the X9000. Viewed from an "objective" lens, the X9000 is better than the Empy 2, but not hugely so. The Empy 2 has decent soundstage, clarity, bass, etc. The X9000 has more spaciousness, but not 2x more, more clarity, but not 2x more, slightly less bass quantity but a snappier attack, and so on. If we went down the attribute checklist, there's nothing that would justify the X9000 being 2x the price of the Empy 2. However, taken as a whole, the X9000's presentation was significantly more compelling to me, and this justifies the 2x price difference. I wouldn't spend $3000 on the Empy 2, but I would spend $6000 on the X9000 because I enjoyed it so much more than the Empy 2. With TOTL things, it's usually small differences that have the biggest impact on the listening experience and I expect that something TOTL would provide an exceptional trait that compels me to take interest in it.
Going on a tangent for a bit, I find the question of "Is X worth it?" to be one of the most useless questions to pose in audio. I understand why people do it, and I ask that question of myself for every purchase, but I don't find it useful to ask others about, because my perception of value and worth is going to be different from others'. The X9000 was worth spending 2x what the Empy 2 cost, for me. It would not be worth that much for someone who preferred the Meze sound, or for someone who has a hard spending limit of $3K.
I've had some limited experiences with estat set ups, having had the old koss 95x for a decent while, and then moving into a KGSS and Carbon CC, as well as the woo wee off of some nice tube amps with speaker ports. I've owned the stax 300, the oldest of the 007s, and the nectar hive. The old 007 was my favorite of the group by a large margin, with a lovely clear sound for classical and instrumental music. However, I sold it rather quickly because it always felt frail and loose on my head, which made me nervous while wearing it. The 300 and nectar hive didn't differentiate themselves enough from dynamic drivers to give them a permanent spot.
At canjam in 2023 I tried several of the stax set ups in their room, and everything lacked engagement for me. Basically, I love the idea of estats, and their quickness, but I don't think there is an estat for me, especially since they require a separate amp structure.
I'm a big believer in the price/performance ratio.
Price will always factor into it since we all (most of us?) have a monetary ceiling, but sometimes you can be inspired to save for an item that's a bit beyond your ceiling if you know the performance is there.
That's exactly what happened to me. Don't get me wrong, I will add an e-stat rig to my kit at some point. But some other audio gear has leapfrogged it on the priority list for now.
That is an outstanding question..
For myself, price factors in thinking whether at a point in time I have the budget or willingness to spend that amount.
But I try very hard to ignore the price and first form an opinion isolated from it and answer just these questions for myself:
- Do I love what I hear and does it move me (usually, when that happens, it happens nearly instantly and I feel that "magic", for whatever reason).
- If (1) happens, then I make a mental assessment where it would sit in my current gear collection (whether it is complementary/additive to what I already have, or replace/upgrade anything).
- Finally, I ask myself would it have a particularly good synergy with my chain (something I particularly obsess about).
Some examples I can think of to illustrate this. For that first consideration, I recall buying the Atrium when it was released. I recall stopping by ZMF the minute CanJam Chicago opened the day it was released, grabbing a pair, and spending 60 minutes glued in place transfixed by their sound. That same pair (of a beautiful Macassar Ebony as a beautiful bonus) was purchased on the spot, before I moved to my second demo of the show, with disregard to logic or anything else I may hear. First and foremost, this hobby for me is about being emotionally engaged with my music. When I find it, it's instant love.
For that second consideration, an example for me would be my recent purchase of the vintage Stax 4070 mk2, a very unusual closed-back estat, providing a rare use case of listening to estat in isolation (estat headphones tend to be particularly open sounding, leaking profusely both ways and really mostly best listened to in privacy).
An example of the third consideration was my purchase of the AIC10. It has been on my bucket list for many years, but when I finally heard it at SoCal 2023 it was with the Tungsten (which I brought with me to that show to test amps; after which I published my review of it) and with the Susvara OG (which I always bring with me to CanJams to test amps). My demo with both of these with the AIC was so profoundly awesome that I ended up buying the AIC for the purpose of listening to these headphones.
It is very hard to ignore price even when I want to, since most times I'm aware of it in advance and it helps create a bias of expectation. I've had some rare cases where I was able to form a purchase opinion at CanJam before finding out about it (I always try to ask the price only after a demo, but unfortunately it is often advertised in a way that is hard to ignore). Most of the times, I just have to try to be honest with myself, and recognize that my opinion would be impacted by the psychology of pricing. It is what it is
That is a misconception (unless you owned this amp and formed this opinion based on your own take of it, in which case of course, your ears my ears etc.).
I currently roll tubes on 6 amps, and have done so on others in the past. I've come to realize that the number of tubes one can roll isn't related to how much impact tube rolling will have. It is simply an amp specific question related to its circuit design and how sensitive it would be to that in real life.
For example, the DIY Aegis (which many here are familiar with) is a tube roller dream, with so many options. I love that about this amp. And those tube rolls do have a notable impact on the amp's sound. But on the extremes, it's few percentage points of difference. The amp's overall characteristics (very clear, expansive soundstage, fast and ethereal) remains the same with small nuances tuned to taste (bit more bass, sweeter mids, etc). The AIC, with only a single gain-stage tube (the output stage is solid state) has much bigger variance between its most extreme tube rolls (e.g. the difference between a Telefunken G73R and Mullard M8136 would trade off speed and technicalities with warmth and texture to quite a wide margin). If you ever read the AIC thread from its start (some wonderful posts in it, btw), you'll see tremendous amount of information about tube rolling (here's an example). As a side bonus, 12au7 tubes are very widely available, both new and NOS, with even the most expensive one being affordable in the relative spectrum of tube rolling prices.
I can reinforce that. Birgir, aka Sptitzer, is really nice in direct interactions (I bought my Carbon from him, as well as couple other things over the years) and actually met him at CanJam NYC 2022 (or was it 2023? the years blur..). He's a super nice guy in person (and, taller than I imagined
). And Kerri from Eksonic is one of the nicest guys (and happens to be a neighbor!).Where does one start?
Well, let's start with the general premise that electrostatic headphones require a very particular commitment. Estat headphones require estat amps (or energizers), and estat amps can only drive estat headphones (excluding a few amps that can do both; but those are just 2 amps packed in one chassis, so essentially it's still an incremental purchase). So, one would have dynamic/planars chains, estat chains, or both. The insanity of our hobby knows no bounds..
Second, why bother? Generalization are dangerous as there are always many exceptions. But as a very general intro to "why estat", I'll say that they tend to be super fast and have excellent technicalities (extremely well resolving, expansive soundstages and great imaging). I find the most common trade off of that (again, exceptions abound) is that their speed almost means very fast decay, which can equate to less note weight and reverb. This quality is what many in the forums here describe as "ethereal".
You can see, only taking this basic consideration into account, that these may be the better choice for some tastes (e.g. if you favor resolution and detail), some genres (e.g. classical music can be spectacular on many of these). And you can also see that estat systems may often be complementary to dynamic and planars (which is why some of us have both).
Many here (including @SolarCetacean's exhaustive list) mentioned most current brands. So I'll just give some colors on those I'm familiar with. The following is my highly subjective take that is based on my taste. I know many here have very different takes, as they should.
Stax - As mentioned, the most ubiquitous of estat brands, and they have been at it for decades. Of their current offerings, the X9000 is their TOTL model. It is exceptionally well resolving (just a bit more than Susvara OG) and has a very large soundstage with fantastic imaging. It has a laid back or recessed presentation, in which I mean to say that the instrument sound further away, as if you at a prime location at the center of row 10 at the concert hall with the sound coming from the stage ahead and washing all around you (as opposed to being more forward and intimate if you sat at row 1). That said, I do find it one of the more tonally balanced estats. It has a pretty notable bass (unlike some older Stax headphones); though, personally (and I think I'm in the minority on this one), I find the bass slightly too elevated and the transition to the lower mids could be better separated for my taste. I own these headphones and find them great. For a more affordable option, I highly recommend finding a vintage SR- 007 mk1 (current version is mk2, of which more than one micro versions exist; current one often refers to as mk2.9)/ The mk1 can be found on the classifieds at around $1.5k or so. The 007mk1 has fantastic bass and is warmer tuned than most estats. It also requires a bit more power. Pairing it with a powerful and dynamic amp let it shine. I use the Mjolnir Carbon, which is very energetic and forward, which also pairs well with the X9K. If one were looking for an entry product, I'd recommend getting one of the Lambda models (can be current 300 or 500 models; or perhaps a vintage model like the Lambda Nova Signature, which I used to own and can recommend) with the SRM-D10 II portable Amp/DAC (which I probably would use as amp only off any DAC you may have). There is also the new SR-X1, which I think is probably meant to replace the Lambda as a round-shaped earcup entry model. I simply haven't tried it yet, so I can't comment on it.
Hifiman - Shangri-La Jr I had as a generous loan from @BassicScience . There are very good, but for me were very similar to the Susvara while lacking some bass. The Shangri-La Sr is a different story (and also a very expensive one). As noted by others, they are very chain sensitive. I also didn't find them as great off the Viva Egoista STX amp. But I thought they were glorious off the HeadAmp Grand Cayman (a real beast of an amp). It was in show conditions, but that amp made these headphones soar. It was the second best estat system I've heard to date.
Warwick - these are systems, i.e. amps and headphones that are sold as one integrated system. There is the more affordable Bravura and the very expensive Aperio. They both have excellent technicalities, but for my taste are a bit too sterile and also lack some of the more expansive soundstage of the Stax and Hifiman headphones. I also find the headphones have a bit too much clamp for my comfort. These are very far apart in price point, and are distinct in their performance levels, but my overall subjective take is similar to both systems.
Audeze - The CRBN2, as noted by others, have a great bass. But I don't find anything about them that I can't find in many of my better planar headphones (Susvara, Caldera, etc) so, unless you already have an estat system, one can get that sound signature without the commitment of an estat ecosystem. Personally, I found these headphones also to be a bit too closed in, in both build and soundstage.
DCA - I find the Corina to not be competitive at its price point. For my taste, it lacks some oomph in the bass and sparkle in the treble (bit too mid centric perhaps? though it's been a long time and memory fades).
There are quite a few boutique brands that @SolarCetacean mentioned, and perhaps worth noting ES Labs that are liked by a few watercoolers here that offer insight (I never had the privilege of trying them out).
And finally, there is
Sennheiser - I'll first mention that, for those who are open to chasing some rare vintage headphones, the Sennheiser HE 60 (aka Baby Orpheus) is an amazing headphone with, perhaps, the best mids of any headphone, or at least on par with the best (incredible piano timbre, as well as vocals). It is reputed to have rolled off bass, and it's not wrong. But, this is something I very successfully fixed with gentle EQ (only headphones I ever EQ, and they are so good it is worth doing so for me); I've written about it here in this thread for anyone interested. Why "Baby"? Because, it was preceded by Sennheiser's previous no-holds-barred electrostatic system (amp/headphone combo), the HE90. I never heard it, but @number1sixerfan has it and perhaps can offer some insight. But don't go chasing it, they are practically unobtainable these days. And, finally, there is the king.. the HE 1. This is Sennheiser's current no-holds-barred electrostatic system (think something like $70k or so). There has been conflicting information on whether they are still building the HE 1 (which is built to order), but at CanJam NYC I learned they were then building 3-4 new systems and a guy at the show was placing an order (I think it has been mostly plagued by supply chain issues that have made this inconsistently produced, but it's just my guess). Anyway, I sign up for a demo at every CanJam, and after each demo I walk away thinking the same thing: this is the best headphone system I ever heard. Many agree, many don't. But, even though you are not going to buy this any time soon (just an educated guess
), if you haven't heard it yet, sign up to listen to it at the next CanJam. All the technicalities of electrostatic, with natural timbre, great bass, and a super organic sound. At the pinnacle of every category stands a product that defines the standard. This is it for me in the estat market.This post became too long, so I'll punt on writing about estat amps (and, also, don't feel I have as much breadth of experience on this end). I'll just mention that I love my Carbon amp, I thought the Eksonic T2 is amazing in all my demos with it, and the Grand Cayman is really good too but is crazy expensive and giant in size. Stax amps are all competent, they do the job and are a suitable starting point for anyone wanting to go into estats; lots of affordable used options here. The woo amps all sounded good to me. I'd describe them as neutral (good for most, but I always chase a flavor). Finally, as mentioned above, there is the discontinued iFi Pro iESL, which one connects to any speaker amp to drive estats. I got one of those and it's a fantastic option for anyone who wants to get into estat without getting a whole new amp, while enjoying the quality of their speaker amp (which will shine through). Those can sometimes be found on the classifieds around $1.5k or bit more, but they are getting more rare.
That's it for my stream of consciousness on estats...
Death_Block
Headphoneus Supremus
Oh that’s a shame. And wow, I thought it was only around 4k
mungster
Headphoneus Supremus
pradiptacr7
500+ Head-Fier
Review for @iFi audio Zen Can 3 is here. Excellent value for money, discreet Class-A amplification.
Check out the detailed take here,
- https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ifi-zen-can-3-headphone-amplifier.27740/reviews#review-37910
Check out the detailed take here,
- https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ifi-zen-can-3-headphone-amplifier.27740/reviews#review-37910
"I find the impact and perception of price as an interesting caveat that doesn't always get fully revealed when discussing equipment. I try to be cognizant of the price but I try to keep it independent from whether I like/prefer an item. How do others factor in price? Does price impact whether you like/prefer/recommend an item?"
Yes, it does. The Sony MV1, which totally out of nowhere, has become my favorite headphone (granted my experience is very limited compared to the regulars here) has somewhat made me question my own race to summit hifi. Talk about diminishing returns.
At some point, I'd like to check out an Arya Stealth or Organic just to know what the (in)famous Hifiman treble is all about, but I see little point in trying out something like a Susvara, because it's way beyond what I'd be willing to spend on a headphone no matter how good.
With the exception of the Noire X, my headphones are all sort of bright, monitoring-types, in short, the type of cans that are the stuff of the headphones.com crew's nightmares
. I'd like to try something else, but in many cases, the opportunity costs are just too high. Especially over here, with exchange rates as they are, headphones by foreign makers are often too expensive. Based on the generous recommendations I'd received here, there are quite a few headphones I'd like to try (ZMF, Dahlia, etc.). Unfortunately, high(er) pricing (due to exchange rate, shipping, tariffs, import taxes, etc.) and lack of local availability have made me somewhat trigger shy.
Yes, it does. The Sony MV1, which totally out of nowhere, has become my favorite headphone (granted my experience is very limited compared to the regulars here) has somewhat made me question my own race to summit hifi. Talk about diminishing returns.
At some point, I'd like to check out an Arya Stealth or Organic just to know what the (in)famous Hifiman treble is all about, but I see little point in trying out something like a Susvara, because it's way beyond what I'd be willing to spend on a headphone no matter how good.
With the exception of the Noire X, my headphones are all sort of bright, monitoring-types, in short, the type of cans that are the stuff of the headphones.com crew's nightmares
. I'd like to try something else, but in many cases, the opportunity costs are just too high. Especially over here, with exchange rates as they are, headphones by foreign makers are often too expensive. Based on the generous recommendations I'd received here, there are quite a few headphones I'd like to try (ZMF, Dahlia, etc.). Unfortunately, high(er) pricing (due to exchange rate, shipping, tariffs, import taxes, etc.) and lack of local availability have made me somewhat trigger shy.
Doug2507
Headphoneus Supremus
It doesn't impact how much or how little I like and item. That's one thing I try to remain completely unbiased about and keep expectations grounded irrespective of price.
But... Prefer.. That does "usually" result in a higher priced offering being the more liked product. Caveat being I'm talking about big jumps, eg, something clearly designed to be in a different tier which by nature is usually the more technically competent product. I certainly don't discriminate though and there's been a few times the underdog has won, within it's respective category. Some outliers here though, I've got a 1-2k IC on demo right now, I prefer two different DIY cables that cost 1/10th of the price. At the end of the day, it's the sound, and synergy that matter for preference.
Recommendations... Yeah, price does impact that for me. Product needs to be seriously good if it's big bucks, have wide appeal (not niche stuff unless I throw in a load of caveats and even then that's a risky rec for someone), or be superb bang for buck (and sound good). Examples of that I guess would be Z1r - probably wouldn't rec as it's niche sound, niche fit and you'd be paying close to retail, Immanis - tough one, just due to being huge expense for an HP irrespective of what I think about sound, XA30.8 and M21 - all day long given used prices, Envy - std / PE edition yes, AE maybe not so much due to cost (again, ends up being a little niche based on price vs std / PE irrespective of sound differences). I guess similar for a lot of AIC owners, doubt many would rec it at full retail but would be a strong rec at used prices. Just need to give a little bit of consideration for what you're getting for your money and general appeal IMO.
@tunes
Regarding Envy vs AIC-10 for Immanis (can't speak for Sus, never heard it)
I think it would be very hard for someone to genuinely say one is better than the other without bias due to personal preference, they're also two completely different designs, eg, tube and hybrid.
I've got AE but I've also added in an SS amp to the chain and that's set in stone now. I do like AE on it's own with Immanis but given the choice I'd run it with SS power all day long. SS into the chain adds grip / heft down low and maybe particular to my specific SS amp, an increased stage not only in width but depth and height.
I've not heard AIC but having ended up with a somewhat hybrid setup myself, I can certainly understand the appeal.
I've mostly been an SS guy but I wanted to add some tubey goodness into the chain a while back, bought Envy, sold the SS amp and Envy stayed. Now using tube pre (Envy) and SS power (Pass) and couldn't be happier.
(BTW, if anyone knows how to edit a post and put a new quote into it please show me the way, it's becoming quite annoying!)
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No problems adding multiple quotes on my end if I forget to add quotes after posting them when editing posts
This admittedly confused me for far too long (and I call myself tech-savvy) after the recent changes were made to consecutive post rules. There is probably a sticky post somewhere that explains this, so it's probably my fault for not having RTFM. But if you select the "+Quote" button on a post (or multiple posts):
Then when editing your own post, there will be a button that says "Insert quotes," which will allow you to select from the posts that you quoted in the step above (but it will insert them into the new response window, so you can copy/paste into the post that you're editing).
Hopefully this helps others to spare some confusion and frustration!
Thanks for explaining it out. It’s also how I do it but I thought it’s pretty obvious for everyone to know how to do this intuitively
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Yea but you have to take the thing apart to get to it and from a tube perspective, the Envy having 300B"s and driver tubes allows for more customization and options, you can see how tubes work together with each other instead of a single tube. I can keep the TM300B's technicalities while adding various flavors of musicality to them by swapping driver tubes. Cant do that with a unit that has one tube. @goldwerger This is why it cannot compete with something like Envy in tube rolling options and why I wouldn't call it a tube rollers amp.
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And yet aic-10 completely changes its signature with each tube swap and is significantly more reactive to power and interconnects swaps, if you are into tinkering with sound. The downside with Envy as with any other 300b amp, is the tube cost, few 300b rolls can cost you almost as much as the amp and good driver tubes keep going up in price. I wouldnt call this a tube rolling dream exactly.
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