[LXMc]

For those here with a breadth of source experience; I've been looking around at DAC options and am currently having a bit of a struggle discerning realistic expectations from an upgrade. Obviously everyone has their own experiences that they perceive but I was curious if the regulars in this thread (which I realize is amp-centric, apologies) have found changing DACs on their chain to have real noticeable benefits/changes.

Right now I've not had a chance to try anything beyond my own two pieces of gear which are midrange at best (Cayin RU7 which is a 1-bit dongle and JDS Element which is an ESS) and frankly they sound pretty similar to me. What I've surmised from reading around is DACs are generally pretty similar sounding in the mid tier range and don't really start coming into their own until you get into R2R or high end. Even then it's hard to know just to what degree as even in some higher end the differences sound negligible. If diminishing returns hits even harder for DACs.

I've generally been keeping a general list of possibilities that are all over the place in price, Mojo 2, SMSL SU-10, Gustard A26/R26, Denafrips Ares 2 and probably my most wanted (and expensive) Ferrum Wandla.

Thanks for any insights!

 

[OnlySoMany]

The list is alphabetized..

It does say that doesn't it?
Long day yesterday, sorry.

 

[OnlySoMany]

For those here with a breadth of source experience; I've been looking around at DAC options and am currently having a bit of a struggle discerning realistic expectations from an upgrade. Obviously everyone has their own experiences that they perceive but I was curious if the regulars in this thread (which I realize is amp-centric, apologies) have found changing DACs on their chain to have real noticeable benefits/changes.

Right now I've not had a chance to try anything beyond my own two pieces of gear which are midrange at best (Cayin RU7 which is a 1-bit dongle and JDS Element which is an ESS) and frankly they sound pretty similar to me. What I've surmised from reading around is DACs are generally pretty similar sounding in the mid tier range and don't really start coming into their own until you get into R2R or high end. Even then it's hard to know just to what degree as even in some higher end the differences sound negligible. If diminishing returns hits even harder for DACs.

I've generally been keeping a general list of possibilities that are all over the place in price, Mojo 2, SMSL SU-10, Gustard A26/R26, Denafrips Ares 2 and probably my most wanted (and expensive) Ferrum Wandla.

Thanks for any insights!

Best two DACs I have heard at length are Thrax Maximinus and Chord Dave/mscaler. Both are expensive but you can hear where your money went.

If both of those are out of reach then I'd try a Chord Qutest or TT.

 

[DavidSerig]

It’s not so much the adapters per se. Rev 2 of the Agartha (model after mine) takes 12AX7 family natively. I think it’s a gain or current issue driving the 300B tubes. For instance the 12BH7 sounds impressive (and is a direct replacement for an ECC99 which was designed to drive 300Bs) 12AU7 seems lacking in dynamics comparatively. I’m curious as to how a 6SN7 would sound as well, I’ve got a bunch of 6SL7’s but those are generally too noisy on the higher taps. 6SN7s would have half the gain and twice the current so they might work as well.

Have you tried a 12au7? Maybe less gain is called for. Even 5751.

 

[shwnwllms]

Have you tried a 12au7? Maybe less gain is called for. Even 5751.

Yes. It’s in my post. Most 12AU7s had too little gain and a loss of dynamics, 12BH7 and G73-R (which are 12AU7 equivalents) are better in this regard

 

[Tchoupitoulas]

What I've surmised from reading around is DACs are generally pretty similar sounding in the mid tier range and don't really start coming into their own until you get into R2R or high end. Even then it's hard to know just to what degree as even in some higher end the differences sound negligible. If diminishing returns hits even harder for DACs.

It can be unwise to generalize too much but, yes, you'll typically find less of a jump in sound quality when upgrading DACs to amps or headphones. With that said, everything matters in the end, and there can be meaningful and significant improvements to upgrading your DAC provided that your headphones and your amp are of a sufficient quality to let you hear those improvements.

You have totl headphones that will respond well to improvements in your chain. I see from your signature that you currently have as your sources the Element III, RU7, and Piety. I've not heard the Element but I've heard the other two in my own system. You'll get the biggest bang for your buck by upgrading your amp first and then the DAC. If you were to add a high-end amp to your system, you'll get a big jump in sound quality but then the DAC will be the bottleneck in your system.

At the risk of oversimplification, DACs can provide significant improvements in several ways: 1) by simply being better made, with better designs, and with the use of superior components, 2) by using different kinds of technology, e.g. R2R vs delta-sigma, depending on your preferences, and 3) by working synergistically, according to your preferences, in your chain. This last point is important: you could buy a totl DAC and pair it with the wrong amp and or headphones and it could sound bad.

Also, because of this last point, it can be hard to make recommendations, all the more so when you haven't settled on an amp. Instead, I'll try to illustrate my point with my own upgrade experience, fwiw.

I started off with a Schiit Audio Fulla 2. From there I went to the Drop x Airist Audio R2R DAC (there's one in the classifieds for sale right now), which was 3x as expensive as the Fulla and did make for a significant jump in performance: the resolution improved significantly, as did the imaging, layering, and separation, as well as the soundstage, and, surprisingly to me at that point in my journey, macrodynamics and slam were both greatly improved, too. This DAC served me very well for several years. As I upgraded components to the Vérité and HD 800 SDR and ultimately the DNA Stratus, I upgraded my DACs. I found that I liked the sound of R2R DACs so next I went with the Bifrost 2, which was twice the price of the Airist, and it made for another significant jump in sound quality, but with the law of diminishing returns beginning to kick in (it was less noticeable jump than from the Fulla to the Airist). Also, matters of synergy and personal preference began to matter more: ultimately, I moved on from the Bifrost because I found its bass a bit too woolly and congested and, more importantly, its slightly edgy treble didn't work well with the VO, so I upgraded to the Gungnir multibit. This is a more neutral DAC, while the Bifrost 2 is on the warmer side, and everything snapped into place nicely since the Gungnir had a much tighter, more precise and focused bass, and treble no longer grated, and the neutral tuning paired well with my VO and Stratus (where there was a danger of combining a warm DAC with a warmish amp and the laidback/darkish VO and ending up with an overly warm presentation). Eventually I moved on to the Yggy A2 because one came up for sale at a price I couldn't refuse, and I also auditioned other DACs, like the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE, in my system, and found the Yggy to be the one that most closely suited my preferences. The Yggy added more weight to the sound, especially in the low end, while also improving staging size and, notably, depth, and increasing resolution yet again.

My apologies for the subjective take on this, I hope it's helpful nonetheless and illustrates how DACs can make a change.

 

[busseysound]

I have it in my Decware Taboo (SE84TS+) and concur it’s fantastic!

Have you tried the G73-R in the ZMF OTL? I'm curious if I should try one in mine. So far out of all of my tube rolling (about a dozen types) for the 6N1P slot the PCC189 from Siemens is the winner.

 

[goldwerger]

It does say that doesn't it?
Long day yesterday, sorry.

All good brother

Have you tried the G73-R in the ZMF OTL? I'm curious if I should try one in mine. So far out of all of my tube rolling (about a dozen types) for the 6N1P slot the PCC189 from Siemens is the winner.

The ZMF OTL input tube will accept pretty much any 6v or 7v gain tube, but the G73-R is a 12v gain tube (12au7 equivalent) so it can’t be used in with that amp

 

[busseysound]

All good brother



The ZMF OTL input tube will accept pretty much any 6v or 7v gain tube, but the G73-R is a 12v gain tube (12au7 equivalent) so it can’t be used in with that amp

Gotcha thanks! I still need to post my review/journey with the amp over in the new ZMF/OTL thread. When I do I'll post a link to it in this thread as well. Just an amazing amp!

 

[goldwerger]

Gotcha thanks! I still need to post my review/journey with the amp over in the new ZMF/OTL thread. When I do I'll post a link to it in this thread as well. Just an amazing amp!

Indeed!

I’ll drop some more info on my tube rolling there soon as well, but meantime here’s a quick one:

I’m using Tung-Sol 5687 (dated 1956) for output tubes (with adapters) and it’s a big upgrade.. recommended

 

[busseysound]

Indeed!

I’ll drop some more info on my tube rolling there soon as well, but meantime here’s a quick one:

I’m using Tung-Sol 5687 (dated 1956) for output tubes (with adapters) and it’s a big upgrade.. recommended

Interesting! Where did you find the adapters?

 

[LXMc]

It can be unwise to generalize too much but, yes, you'll typically find less of a jump in sound quality when upgrading DACs to amps or headphones. With that said, everything matters in the end, and there can be meaningful and significant improvements to upgrading your DAC provided that your headphones and your amp are of a sufficient quality to let you hear those improvements.

You have totl headphones that will respond well to improvements in your chain. I see from your signature that you currently have as your sources the Element III, RU7, and Piety. I've not heard the Element but I've heard the other two in my own system. You'll get the biggest bang for your buck by upgrading your amp first and then the DAC. If you were to add a high-end amp to your system, you'll get a big jump in sound quality but then the DAC will be the bottleneck in your system.

At the risk of oversimplification, DACs can provide significant improvements in several ways: 1) by simply being better made, with better designs, and with the use of superior components, 2) by using different kinds of technology, e.g. R2R vs delta-sigma, depending on your preferences, and 3) by working synergistically, according to your preferences, in your chain. This last point is important: you could buy a totl DAC and pair it with the wrong amp and or headphones and it could sound bad.

Also, because of this last point, it can be hard to make recommendations, all the more so when you haven't settled on an amp. Instead, I'll try to illustrate my point with my own upgrade experience, fwiw.

I started off with a Schiit Audio Fulla 2. From there I went to the Drop x Airist Audio R2R DAC (there's one in the classifieds for sale right now), which was 3x as expensive as the Fulla and did make for a significant jump in performance: the resolution improved significantly, as did the imaging, layering, and separation, as well as the soundstage, and, surprisingly to me at that point in my journey, macrodynamics and slam were both greatly improved, too. This DAC served me very well for several years. As I upgraded components to the Vérité and HD 800 SDR and ultimately the DNA Stratus, I upgraded my DACs. I found that I liked the sound of R2R DACs so next I went with the Bifrost 2, which was twice the price of the Airist, and it made for another significant jump in sound quality, but with the law of diminishing returns beginning to kick in (it was less noticeable jump than from the Fulla to the Airist). Also, matters of synergy and personal preference began to matter more: ultimately, I moved on from the Bifrost because I found its bass a bit too woolly and congested and, more importantly, its slightly edgy treble didn't work well with the VO, so I upgraded to the Gungnir multibit. This is a more neutral DAC, while the Bifrost 2 is on the warmer side, and everything snapped into place nicely since the Gungnir had a much tighter, more precise and focused bass, and treble no longer grated, and the neutral tuning paired well with my VO and Stratus (where there was a danger of combining a warm DAC with a warmish amp and the laidback/darkish VO and ending up with an overly warm presentation). Eventually I moved on to the Yggy A2 because one came up for sale at a price I couldn't refuse, and I also auditioned other DACs, like the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE, in my system, and found the Yggy to be the one that most closely suited my preferences. The Yggy added more weight to the sound, especially in the low end, while also improving staging size and, notably, depth, and increasing resolution yet again.

My apologies for the subjective take on this, I hope it's helpful nonetheless and illustrates how DACs can make a change.

No apologies needed - this is exactly the kind of subjective experience I was hoping to get when I asked, especially the breakdown of your process and journey.

On my end, an amp upgrade is definitely on my list as well (the top of my list is the upcoming JDS/ZMF amp but I have some backup considerations as well) as I expected my current set wouldn't necessarily show the benefits of a big DAC upgrade in the same way. This helps me better prioritize my order of operations, so thanks for this.

 

[goldwerger]

Interesting! Where did you find the adapters?

I recommend these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1956408746...PljpOriSsu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I got another pair (Jemosa) that are wider, so you need to plug those to a socket saver and build a small tower. Totally doable. But the narrower adapter in the link above fits the small outer rims of the amp’s outer shell so easy peasy..

 

[busseysound]

I recommend these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1956408746...PljpOriSsu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I got another pair (Jemosa) that are wider, so you need to plug those to a socket saver and build a small tower. Totally doable. But the narrower adapter in the link above fits the small outer rims of the amp’s outer shell so easy peasy..

Fantastic! Got those and found a pair from tube museum that looked excellent.

 

[goldwerger]

Fantastic! Got those and found a pair from tube museum that looked excellent.

Congrats! Pls report in the OTL thread.. curious if you’ll enjoy them as I do