[Thaudiophile]

Demo - tangible.
Subjective impressions - intangible.

I wouldn't make ultimate conclusions about headphones based on mic'd demos, but they are still useful as a somewhat indirect point of comparison, given that the same recording equipment is used consistently. They provide you with an idea of a headphone's relative frequency response, for one. For another, detail resolution. All the demos of non-electrostatic headphones I've heard lack resolution when compared to Staxes.

There is a thread somewhere started by a person who experimented with building his own electrostatic headphones from scratch, and claims that his creation compare well with the Stax flagships. This leads me to think that perhaps electrostats have probably already reached nearly the pinnacle of what's possible in audio fidelity, due to the nature of the technology. I'm a electrical engineering student, and from what I think I understand about recent developments of e-stats is that it is implausible for the technology to get much better without revolutionary futuristic materials, such as graphene. The extremely membrane being used is already extremely low mass, and strong. Any "improvement" mostly comes from fine tuning of existing technology/components. Spacing the stators farther apart, for example, makes the headphones less efficient but theoretically improves the dynamic range; solution--use a more powerful amp to compensate. However, that's more of a fine tuning than a groundbreaking change. Increasing the stators' capacitance/area density ratio is a difficult task, unless some futuristic new material can be used (graphene?). Combining these tweaks with better manufacturing techniques (usually more involved, time-consuming and expensive, requiring more human labor), you may get something that is marginally technically superior. However, whether this "improvement" passes the subjective test of individual enjoyment is something entirely different. Considering that Stax uses the same materials in their L700 as they did in their 009, one can reasonably presume the difference between these two headphones is merely a result of difference in extent of manufacturing design involvement/complexity, and fine tuning. Basically, the difference between Ultegra and Dura Ace (for those of you who are cyclists).

By the way, you can't reasonably jump to absolute conclusions about headphones you've never experienced; others' experiences will not necessarily be congruent with your own. This hobby is 40% objectivity, and 60% subjectivity.

When did i say that this hobby is objectivity and not subjectivity?
Anyway I literally said that I have heard other other Lambda systems like Srs 4040,2170 and l300 many times, even on Srm- 727 and SRM 007tii, 009 still beat them overall, it was clearer,smoother, had larger and more precise soundstage, better bass and mids.I don't think that the tables would turn if I suddenly hear L700.Objectively the omegas should still be better, I don't have any problem with subjectivity, you can prefer an overall grainier,less dynamic, smaller and less precise sound all you want. However your previous post was on a completely different topic, the sound of L700 is greatly coloured by the headphone and mic you are using to demo it with, so the sound is not accurate, I can give many examples of that but that will off topic. I still agree with almost everything that you said in your last post though. Except your percentage calculation about objectivity and subjectivity.

Still I find it very intriguing that no one was ever this passionate about L700s before this review, people are saying that it's about subjectivity and yet none of them follow their own words by taking a reviewers words/opinion for granted and believing that as a fact. People love to jump on hype trains don't they?

 

[tigon_ridge]

All of the terms you used have a very high degree of proneness to subjectivity, and none of them are well defined. I've been in this hobby for over a decade, and I still don't know exactly what people refer to when they use terms like "smooth," "grainy," "precise imaging," "texture," etc. I've heard high-end headphones that were given these descriptions by many users, but when it came down to my own listening, I didn't quite perceive it the same way I thought they did, which led to some confusion on my end.

Of course the recording equipment colors they original sound waves that make contact with the mic, but the coloring is consistent for every headphone tested, which should still give you an idea of how they compare to each other. For example, no amount of coloring will add resolution to what goes into the mic, which allows you to perceive the difference in that aspect between different cans. No amount of color will make one headphone sound warmer/colder than another, unless it were already warmer/colder. Basically, it's the difference between accuracy and precision. Even an inaccurate device can accurately measure the relative difference between two magnitude, if that device is precise. If you use a wooden ruler that has expanded due moisture and temperature, it will be inaccurate, but the spacing between increment is still consistent enough for you ascertain the difference in lengths of multiple objects, relative to the ruler's length.

It's not passion towards the L700s per se. Someone popular made a review on these cans, so naturally attention is drawn towards it. That's all it is. No one is taking anyone's words for granted. Valuing someone's contribution to the subject is not the same thing that taking their words at face value. Now, it's clear that you don't value that contribution, which is fine, but I'm getting the vibe that you're trying to impose your perception of that contribution onto others, while at the same time having no actual experience with the L700 to speak of yet comparing it to the 009 in such absolute terms.

 

[Thaudiophile]

Subjectivity don't matter much when there are too much differences in technicalities and very little difference in tonality. Like someone said that L700 are something special, well I will find out that speciality when I own one. This entire time i have never implied that SR 009 is better than L700, NEVER. My point is/has been that don't take this review seriously, I never ever said that his review was bad, I just said that it wasn't factual.I don't know why people are getting this vibe that I am sorta forcing my perception/opinion on others.

People are getting defensive/offensive , that's what they do when they are on the hype train or are too passionate about something like L700. Like you, you don't even know the topic you are arguing with me on. If you followed that subjectivity rule, then the first thing you would do is post "let's agree to disagree". Now If you still want to debate then at least be clear about the point you want to make.

 

[tigon_ridge]

"...by looking at the impressions posted by others,I can already say that Omegas are much pretty better in every way to lower end Lambdas like l700 and l500". lol??

You keep assuming that these recent posts are due to some hype train. No. Attention has been drawn to the thread from a well known individual. I don't know why this is hard to understand. It's called peer-to-peer marketing. When all eyes are on a thing, that does not mean all eyes are perceiving it positively.

 

[Thaudiophile]

"...by looking at the impressions posted by others,I can already say that Omegas are much pretty better in every way to lower end Lambdas like l700 and l500". lol??

You keep assuming that these recent posts are due to some hype train. No. Attention has been drawn to the thread from a well known individual. I don't know why this is hard to understand. It's called peer-to-peer marketing. When all eyes are on a thing, that does not mean all eyes are perceiving it positively.

Well Those impressions implied that SR 009 or Omegas were better not mine also it's not like those opinions were uncommon so of course I will get the vibe that omega are better but I am still holding out my judgement, so please try to understand the point I am trying to make, infact I said that "I will buy l700 and Mrspeakpers ether Electrostat in about one year and I will post an unbiased review", so is it too hard to understand?

 

[tigon_ridge]

Cheers to that endeavor. I've been interested in Stax for years, but plunking down for an expensive dedicated electrostatic amp is quite a commitment imo. I'd love to listen to a nice setup one of these days.

 

[Thaudiophile]

"You keep assuming that these recent posts are due to some hype train. No."Well my friend that's your opinion, I think it is hype train and you think it isn't.So let's just agree to disagree.Also the point you made about "Demos","mic colourations", I only implied that those demos weren't 100% accurate, I never said that those demos sound completely different than the real things. So please.

 

[Jmask5]

The most important factor in buying a headphone should be your personal opinion. If you listen to l700 and thinks its the best thing ever than all the power to you. You aren not wrong. Reviews do a good job bringing great headphones to light. After that you decide whats best.

 

[ToroFiestaSol]

I think that the best "stock" Stax option is L700 and SRM-353X, it's a bit bright but nothing annoying, so Jay-Zeos has a point.
But once you get a KG amp, 007 and even 009 are much better. Port modded 007 and BHSE or KGSSHV Carbon is a different universe, even deaf people will tell you that.
Jay-Zeos hasn't heard a KG amp or a port modded 007, so that's why he said that.

 

[Thaudiophile]

I think that the best "stock" Stax option is L700 and SRM-353X, it's a bit bright but nothing annoying, so Jay-Zeos has a point.
But once you get a KG amp, 007 and even 009 are much better. Port modded 007 and BHSE or KGSSHV Carbon is a different universe, even deaf people will tell you that.
Jay-Zeos hasn't heard a KG amp or a port modded 007, so that's why he said that.

I know it's about tastes, but how would you describe the sound of portmodded 007 compared to the 009?

 

[ToroFiestaSol]

I know it's about tastes, but how would you describe the sound of portmodded 007 compared to the 009?

There's a lot of contreoversy about that subject, so this are my impressions, 009 fanboys please don't jump.
It's very important to know that 009 will sound much louder at the same volume, so you have to turn up the volume much more with the 007 to get the same perceived volume.

My 007 is the last revision, and I did the port mod, also bought MK1 metal springs and replaced the stock ones, it's important to bend the front arcs a bit to get a perfect fit with the 007, it's a very tricky headphone, not "plug and play", 007 as described is the "Stax Mafia approved" one.

Once volume matched, and using my KGSSHV Mini, the 007 makes the 009 sound anemic, there's much more bass but super controlled and tight, never bleeding witht the mids, everything is cohesive and musical, perfectly balanced, spot on treble, not dark like the 007 MK1.
It sounds like music, you hear a trumpet and you think: "oh, this is a trumpet", you'll never think "what a nice midrange".
Once volume matched, the level of detail is equal on both 009 and 007. 009 sounds always wider with 007 soundstage is "sizeable" and with more precise imaging.
009 is much thinner and brighter, like "look at me!". Once you factor that the 009 costs twice, is like throwing money to a trash can.
I can understand that not everyone will buy an aftermarket amp, and modify a 2k electrostatic headphone because some wise guy on the internet said it, but those guys are dead on right with what they say.
Also, I could hear my 007 with a BHSE and a Carbon, and a NOS DAC (Metrum Pavane), and the NOS DAC and better amp will not save 009 contrary to popular belief, in fact, it only made the differences more pronunced in favor of 007.

A lot of people will tell you that 009 are better, and I don't agree,
You know that something is wrong when the most trusted reviewer (Tyll), the most famous mastering engineer (Bob Katz) and the most knowledgeable people about Stax (Stax Mafia) agree on the modded 007 being a far superior transducer.

There you have it, that's my opinion, I hope that 009 fanboys don't jump at my neck like hungry hyenas.

[mod edit] removed comment about age

 

[Thaudiophile]

There's a lot of contreoversy about that subject, so this are my impressions, 009 fanboys please don't jump.
It's very important to know that 009 will sound much louder at the same volume, so you have to turn up the volume much more with the 007 to get the same perceived volume.

My 007 is the last revision, and I did the port mod, also bought MK1 metal springs and replaced the stock ones, it's important to bend the front arcs a bit to get a perfect fit with the 007, it's a very tricky headphone, not "plug and play", 007 as described is the "Stax Mafia approved" one.

Once volume matched, and using my KGSSHV Mini, the 007 makes the 009 sound anemic, there's much more bass but super controlled and tight, never bleeding witht the mids, everything is cohesive and musical, perfectly balanced, spot on treble, not dark like the 007 MK1.
It sounds like music, you hear a trumpet and you think: "oh, this is a trumpet", you'll never think "what a nice midrange".
Once volume matched, the level of detail is equal on both 009 and 007. 009 sounds always wider with 007 soundstage is "sizeable" and with more precise imaging.
009 is much thinner and brighter, like "look at me!". Once you factor that the 009 costs twice, is like throwing money to a trash can.
I can understand that not everyone will buy an aftermarket amp, and modify a 2k electrostatic headphone because some wise guy on the internet said it, but those guys are dead on right with what they say.
Also, I could hear my 007 with a BHSE and a Carbon, and a NOS DAC (Metrum Pavane), and the NOS DAC and better amp will not save 009 contrary to popular belief, in fact, it only made the differences more pronunced in favor of 007.

A lot of people will tell you that 009 are better, and I don't agree,
You know that something is wrong when the most trusted reviewer (Tyll), the most famous mastering engineer (Bob Katz) and the most knowledgeable people about Stax (Stax Mafia) agree on the modded 007 being a far superior transducer.

There you have it, that's my opinion, I hope that 009 fanboys don't jump at my neck like hungry hyenas.

Great impressions man,SR 007 in black is truly a gorgeous headphone.

 

[Jmask5]

I wonder if the L700 scales like the 007 and 009. Anyone try it with KG or blue hawaii?

 

[VandyMan]

This hobby is 40% objectivity, and 60% subjectivity.

I agree 48%.

 

[AnakChan]

[Mod hat on]
Guys, play nice or find yourselves locked out of the thread. Respect other members/subscriber's opinions. Feel free to debate about the technicalities but not about the who's disagreeing with whose opinions (without providing the substance).
[/Mod hat off]

@Jmask5, personally both the L700 and SR-009 to scale but differently. I don't own the L700 but have tried it numerous times - but have the SR-009 since 2012. To my personal experience with the headphones, the L700 is more easily driven and with more powerful amps, scales linearly but tapers off with higher end amps. Mind you, having said that, I personally think the SRM-T8000 works better with the L700 than the SR-009 to my tastes. The SR-009 OTOH when paired with decent amps starts to shine - I lived with the SRM-727tA for about 18 months and moved to the Eddie Current Electra which I'm rather satisfied with (although still something like the BHSE brings out the most of the SR-009).

So there are multiple aspects to the each headphone - IMHO, I prefer the tonal balance of the L700 which is more easily palatable to my ears from a musical stand point. However the SR-009 is technically more resolving to my ears, it has more finesse especially say driven with by something like the BHSE (mind you the only experience I have with the BHSE is @arnaud's with his high end valve tubes). So personally I haven't found the perfect Stax where I can get the tonal balance of the L700 but with the resolution of the SR-009.

Well, according to Stax the L700 driver is based on the same membrane material as the 009, so it is newer but it is not newer technology. Furthermore, among the original Omega, the SR007 (aka Omega 2) and SR009, there are some who prefer, the first, some who prefer the second and some who prefer the third, so newer is not necessarily better. And as Thaudiophile says, most who have listened to the L700, SR007 and SR009 find the latter two superior to the former.

@JimL11, I've just sent off a mail to Stax to check on this. I have little doubt that the L700 is using the same membrane material as the SR-009 however I'm thinking the thickness is different (as is the SR-007Mk2 being different from the SR-009 too).