[nightfire]

I think whether or not you hear a veil depends on what you're looking to get from the headphones.

AKGs and some Grados I think aim more towards putting you in front of a live venue, with the piercing whines and noises that scream out of an amp feeding back, and the glitter and sparkle of a crash cymbal. They're exhausting to listen to in real life and bright-ish phones recreate that exhaustion. Good ones control excessive sibilance and tinniness and bad ones accentuate it.

I don't have a lot of experience with Sennheisers, but each time I listen to them I find them very pleasant, but more in the relaxing sense. I personally think they err on the side of caution. It's more like sitting in a smoky lounge with background music. Not for raw energy and aggressiveness.

This is what I think of when I hear 'veil.'

Also I think it might be confusing because treble extension adds air (which I don't think was lacking on the HD600 and 650 I heard), but the life of a Grado is provided more by a lower treble peak in the sibilance range. This is the big difference, I find.

 

[Patu]

It's just what your ears have got used to. Now when I've listened to HD650 exclusively for 4-5 months I definitely don't hear any "veil" with them. When I owned HD650, RS2 and SA5000 at the same time, of course HD650 sounded like very warm and sometimes even muffled or veiled when A/B testing with SA5000/RS2. But then again, when I listened to HD650 for some time it didn't sound muffled or veiled anymore.

When I bought my first pair of Grado's (HF-1) and already owned HD650, I wondered how people can listen to these headphones. They were unbearably bright and I couldn't listen to them for long times without a headache. Earpads were also very painful first. But then after a couple of weeks they grew into me and I started to enjoy them. I still enjoyed HD650 and valued its presentation.

It's all about getting used to some sound signature.

 

[Davesrose]

great points nightfire. While my preferences/ tastes are different then yours, your points seem well observed. To my ears, Senns are more "lively" because of their extension. They were designed as classical cans first. Initially, when I first tried Grados, I found I liked their extra detail for electric guitar and vocals in certain rock genres mostly. AKGs were just hollow sounding to me because of the louder midrange, but larger soundstage (not making them sound concert like at all).

Well when you get into more expensive setups, IMO, lots of headphones can excell at most music genres. My HD650s now seem to have a great midrange that can make cymbals sparkly and any guitar detailed, yet retain the "liveliness" for classical music.

 

[NiceCans]

Wow, is it time for the Senn veil thread again already???

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiceCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, is it time for the Senn veil thread again already???

I sense yet another k701 vs HD650 thread coming on

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif β22 = no veil

Of course! Where would we be in DIY or amps without a headphone series that soaked up everything we gave it and asked for more?

Many other phones do just fine on less, and improve little with more.

 

[mirumu]

I agree with nightfire's previous comment based on the experience of my own HD595s. I never really considered the HD595s to have a veil but I can hear exactly what nightfire's describing so based on that definition I'd have to agree. I don't really think it's that surprising that some hearing that would see it as a veil and other's don't. It'll depend on your reference point and what you're looking for in a headphone. Veil or not though, I don't see why it should change anyone's feeling about their favorite headphones. If it rings your bells then enjoy it I say.

 

[NiceCans]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I sense yet another k701 vs HD650 thread coming on

Nah, she's gonna be good

Matter of fact I will even pay homage to my previously owned HD600 and say it had no veil!

Just a thick bassy smoke-screen obscuring the mids

It was a lush . . . er, I mean it was lush sounding.

j/k

Seriously, no veil, simply an alternative presentation.

 

[J-Pak]

Electric guitar sounds plain dull on the HD650. Thats what the RS-1 was designed for, John Grado tuned his headphones around early classic rock and god damn does it sound good.

The HD650 can't capture the crunch and distortion of a wonderful EL34 tubed guitar amp./

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Pak /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry but if it's one thing these Senn fanboys have wrong is that electric guitar sounds plain dull on the HD650. Thats what the RS-1 was designed for. The HD650 can't capture the crunch and distortion of a wonderful EL34 tubed guitar amp./

Well we can aggree to disagree about what headphones sound the most natural for a given instrument. It is highly dependant on our ears and gear too: and it's not just an excuse thought up by Sennheiser fans (I get the same arguement from Beyer and AKG fans). Personally, I find my HD650 has the impact and detail to convey an electric guitar....maybe it's my ears and the tubes of my SP amp

I know you've expressed distain for the HD650's more subtle details over the AKGs before J-Pak. Maybe there is something about headphones being so close to our ears that make them sound radically different for everyone: we all have different shaped helixes and chocleas. So maybe Sennheiser fanboys are picking out the details with Sennheisers that the AKG fans fail to hear: all because of our ears. So why have a AKG/Grado vs Sennheiser flame war

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

Also I think it might be confusing because treble extension adds air (which I don't think was lacking on the HD600 and 650 I heard), but the life of a Grado is provided more by a lower treble peak in the sibilance range. This is the big difference, I find.

This is absolutely correct. Grados tend to drop off sharply after around 16-17kHz, Sennheiser cans go to 20kHz and far beyond. It does make a huge difference. But on the other hand, no Sennheiser has a 10dB peak at 10kHz.

Quote:

The HD650 can't capture the crunch and distortion of a wonderful EL34 tubed guitar amp.

And no Grado can capture the sweet harmonic overtones of a violin.

 

[aphex944]

Yeah, lets take photos of our ears and compare!

Maybe we could even make an ear database.. linking ear shape and design with headphone preferences, hahaha

 

[J-Pak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well we can aggree to disagree about what headphones sound the most natural for a given instrument. It is highly dependant on our ears and gear too: and it's not just an excuse thought up by Sennheiser fans (I get the same arguement from Beyer and AKG fans). Personally, I find my HD650 has the impact and detail to convey an electric guitar....maybe it's my ears and the tubes of my SP amp I know you've expressed distain for the HD650's more subtle details over the AKGs before J-Pak. Maybe there is something about headphones being so close to our ears that make them sound radically different for everyone: we all have different shaped helixes and chocleas. So maybe Sennheiser fanboys are picking out the details with Sennheisers that the AKG fans fail to hear: all because of our ears. So why have a AKG/Grado vs Sennheiser flame war

Oh boy, I'm not a fanboy for any company. I would never devote my loyalties to any one company because I'd be restricting my choices

Notice how I didn't even mention the AKG's in my post, and that I don't own an RS-1 (and I didn't mention anything about the HD650 details

. Impact and detail are seperate from capturing the true nature of an instrument)? It's my opinion that only the Grados can truly capture electric guitar. I'm not deluding myself into thinking there is a perfect headphone. Who knows maybe I'm just picky because I've heard a lot of gear?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif And no Grado can capture the sweet harmonic overtones of a violin.

An electric guitar isn't a violin

(Unless you're refering to the violin from Starship Troopers...which looked like an...electric violin??)

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Huh? You said that an HD650 can't render an electric guitar properly. I countered by saying that a Grado can't render a violin properly.

A lot of this seems to depend on what kind of music one listens to. A lot of the music I listen to contains unamplified acoustic instruments, especially string instruments, and I find that a Senn gives a much more faithful reproduction of these. I only have one album on my whole hard drive that features electric guitars prominently. (The Jets'N'Guns soundtrack. Awesome stuff, that.)

 

[fordgtlover]

I never get the feeling that I am missing any part of the music with my 580's - gotta love 'em.

To my mind it's a bit like wearing snow goggles when skiing; I know they change my perception of colours, but I am happy to trade this off to reduce the glare, which overall makes me more comfortable. The 580s might reduce a small amount of the brightness associates with the mids, but this makes it more comfortable for me to listen to music. If I skied all day without goggles my eyes would feel tired and irritated. If I listened to bright headphones for any length of time my ears would feel tired and irritated.

Maybe there is a veil. But, it's one that suits my ears.