[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwilson /img/forum/go_quote.gif HD800 wins the overall performance among 3 headphones in classic and symphony

This is what I've been afraid of. With some mentioning a slight lack of bass, it sounds as though these headphones are geared more towards classical, symphony, and opera(the traditional Sennheiser strong suit) and wouldn't be as ideal for rock, hip hop, club/electronic.

Continuing to read impressions like this, along with the constant never ending delays, gets me closer and closer to canceling my preorder.

 

[Voltron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is what I've been afraid of. With some mentioning a slight lack of bass, it sounds as though these headphones are geared more towards classical, symphony, and opera(the traditional Sennheiser strong suit) and wouldn't be as ideal for rock, hip hop, club/electronic. Continuing to read impressions like this, along with the constant never ending delays, gets me closer and closer to canceling my preorder.

I have no interest in whether you cancel your order but I didn't listen to any classical music when I heard the HD800 and I still thought they were among the best headphones I have heard. I listened to rock and jazz and they sounded excellent. Not sure why you need world class headphones for hip hop or club music but that is a different issue altogether.

 

[bergman2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwilson /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, it is qualia. I think there is no such comparison article about HD800 vs. 010 yet. And it is so sorry that I cannot leak any more detail of HD800 due to some reasons. But…. both the sound performance and signature of the above headphones are quite different. Resolution and sound stage are still the strength of Qualia. HD800 wins the overall performance among 3 headphones in classic and symphony

....given that I'm off to see Star Trek in an hour a Spock colloquialism seems appropriate --- "Fascinating"... all these little teasers and tidbits of info continue to pique my interest ...

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwilson /img/forum/go_quote.gif And it is so sorry that I cannot leak any more detail of HD800 due to some reasons.

Please tell us those reasons.

 

[Dan Lavry]

I have not listen to the HD800 yet. I intend to do so. My personal set is the HD650. But as a electronics design engineer, I of course looked at the data, with particular interest in the specifications. The HD800 has a distortion specifications that is 2.5 times lower then the very impressive HD650.

Yes, I know, many people in audio do not pay much attention to specifications. I too agree that general specifications (with not much detail) do not tell the whole story. For example, a 1% THD (distortion plus noise) figure can be very annoying if the energy is at 3KHz, right where the ear is very sensitive. The same 1% is a lot less disturbing if the energy is at say 19-20KHz, where the ear sensitivity is much lower. But general specifications do tell some of the story.

When you buy a car, the general specifications give you an general idea about gas mileage, the towing capability and so on. The specs do not tell you everything, but I would not even look at a car without some basic knowledge of some basic information. Personally, I have a problem with any electronics gear that does not have some basic published specifications.

The HD800 is not inexpensive, but looking at the electrical specifications, I would say it is a significant step forwards, not just a repackaging job of the HD650, which is a very fine Headphone.

So yes, while "general specs are not everything" (detail specs tell much more but they take dozens of pages), the HD800 is worth looking into, in my opinion.

Regards
Dan Lavry
Lavry Engineering

 

[Blackmore]

From what I could read, its the best of two worlds: mix of electrostats and dynamics.
On the other hand AKG K340 been made like 30 years ago, so, the new best is the forgotten old one?

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lavry /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have not listen to the HD800 yet. I intend to do so. My personal set is the HD650. But as a electronics design engineer, I of course looked at the data, with particular interest in the specifications. The HD800 has a distortion specifications that is 2.5 times lower then the very impressive HD650. Yes, I know, many people in audio do not pay much attention to specifications. I too agree that general specifications (with not much detail) do not tell the whole story. For example, a 1% THD (distortion plus noise) figure can be very annoying if the energy is at 3KHz, right where the ear is very sensitive. The same 1% is a lot less disturbing if the energy is at say 19-20KHz, where the ear sensitivity is much lower. But general specifications do tell some of the story. When you buy a car, the general specifications give you an general idea about gas mileage, the towing capability and so on. The specs do not tell you everything, but I would not even look at a car without some basic knowledge of some basic information. Personally, I have a problem with any electronics gear that does not have some basic published specifications. The HD800 is not inexpensive, but looking at the electrical specifications, I would say it is a significant step forwards, not just a repackaging job of the HD650, which is a very fine Headphone. So yes, while "general specs are not everything" (detail specs tell much more but they take dozens of pages), the HD800 is worth looking into, in my opinion. Regards Dan Lavry Lavry Engineering

Specs and prototypes bore me. Come on sennheiser, give us the real thing!

 

[Dan Lavry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towert7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Specs and prototypes bore me. Come on sennheiser, give us the real thing!

As a designer, I can tell you that detailed specifications do indicate a lot of the end result to the ear. I have been dealing with it for many years, so it is not at all boring to me. On the contrary, the years of study about the relationship between the end result (sonic) and how to get there (engineering) is very interesting to me.

But I guess that too is boring to you. I value my time so I sure hope your opinion is not shared by everyone here.

Dan Lavry

 

[Hopstretch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lavry /img/forum/go_quote.gif But I guess that too is boring to you. I value my time so I sure hope your opinion is not shared by everyone here. Dan Lavry

It is not. Thank you for trying to elevate the discourse, however vainly.

 

[IPodPJ]

It is appreciated Dan and I thank you for sharing. Is there anything you can tell me about how loud the headphones are able to get before their drivers start to distort? I know the HD800 have a power handling maximum of 500mW and rated at 300 ohms.

Also, I'd like to know if my amp (Corda Opera) has enough power for them. The rated specs are maximum output of 13V/500mA. That equates to 6.5 watts. I know there is no possible way it is outputting anywhere near 6500mW, and at what impedance I don't know (but my guess would be 0 to come up with a rating like that). It gets my D5000 to driver blowing levels and they can handle 1000mW and are rated at 26 ohm. My K702 (60 ohm) can only handle 200mW, and my amp can cause the drivers to distort as well, but barely. The HD800 handle 500mW but they are 300 ohm so I'd like to know if my amp is sufficient for them. (I know the Opera was designed using the HD600/650, also 300 ohm.) The Luxman P-1 provides 106mW at 300 ohms, and people seem to feel it works well with the HD650. Are tube amps the only amps that will provide 500mW at 300ohms and if so, why?

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated. I know I asked a lot. Thanks!

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lavry /img/forum/go_quote.gif As a designer, I can tell you that detailed specifications do indicate a lot of the end result to the ear. I have been dealing with it for many years, so it is not at all boring to me. On the contrary, the years of study about the relationship between the end result (sonic) and how to get there (engineering) is very interesting to me. But I guess that too is boring to you. I value my time so I sure hope your opinion is not shared by everyone here. Dan Lavry

Dan, I think you'll find that you're among friends here.

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lavry /img/forum/go_quote.gif As a designer, I can tell you that detailed specifications do indicate a lot of the end result to the ear. I have been dealing with it for many years, so it is not at all boring to me. On the contrary, the years of study about the relationship between the end result (sonic) and how to get there (engineering) is very interesting to me. Dan Lavry

Speaking of engineering, what do you think of the new driver from an engineering perspective? What advantages should it have over more normal drivers? (sorry if you wrote about that already... long thread...)

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dan, I think you'll find that you're among friends here.

yes

 

[Dan Lavry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is appreciated Dan and I thank you for sharing. Is there anything you can tell me about how loud the headphones are able to get before their drivers start to distort? I know the HD800 have a power handling maximum of 500mW and rated at 300 ohms. Also, I'd like to know if my amp (Corda Opera) has enough power for them. The rated specs are maximum output of 13V/500mA. That equates to 6.5 watts. I know there is no possible way it is outputting anywhere near 6500mW, and at what impedance I don't know (but my guess would be 0 to come up with a rating like that). It gets my D5000 to driver blowing levels and they can handle 1000mW and are rated at 26 ohm. My K702 (60 ohm) can only handle 200mW, and my amp can cause the drivers to distort as well, but barely. The HD800 handle 500mW but they are 300 ohm so I'd like to know if my amp is sufficient for them. (I know the Opera was designed using the HD600/650, also 300 ohm.) The Luxman P-1 provides 106mW at 300 ohms, and people seem to feel it works well with the HD650. Are tube amps the only amps that will provide 500mW at 300ohms and if so, why? Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated. I know I asked a lot. Thanks!

I am not sure I can answer all your specific questions about the various gear out there. You said the HD650 has a maximum power rating of 500mW, so at 300 Ohm it amounts to 12.25V rms, and 41mA. That is a hack of a lot! That is of course assuming 500mW per side. If we assume that the rating is 250mW per side (a total of 500mW for both sides) then the voltage is 8.66V and the current is 29mA. That is still a hack of a lot! So I would tend to think that the rating is for indicating the point of damage to the headphones. Such power levels are enough to wake up a deaf dead man...

You said that your amp can supply 13V/500mA. The way I read it, your amp can supply up to 13V and up to 500mA. But to have 13V AND 500mA, you need an impedance of 13/0.5 = 26 Ohms, and with such low impedance the power level would be 6.5 Watts! That is pretty low headphone impedance, and a ridiculesly high power...

If you plug say an 300 Ohm into you amp, and the maximum voltage is 13V, then the current is 13/300 = 43mA and the power is 13 * 0.043 = 0.55 Watts. If the impedance of the load (headphone) is say 600 Ohms, then the current is 22mA and the power is .29 Watt...

When you double the impedance, for the same power level you need to increase the voltage by a factor of 1.414 (41% higher voltage). The current will be reduced to around .707 (29% less current).

In other words, the amount of powered delivered depends on BOTH the headphone amp AND the headphone itself. The headphone amp data tells you the limits of its capability (voltage and current), but the headphone itself (the impedance) plays a role in how much poer is delivered.

All of the above is rather simplistic first order aproximation, because a headphone is not really a fixed load, nor is it a pure resistive load, but what I said is a reasnobly good approximation.

But all that is missing an importent factor. We are talking about the electric power delivered to the headphone. It is importent to know how much of that power gets converted into acoustic sound energy. Say you deliver 100mW electric power to the cans, do you end up with 10mW acoustic power (10% efficiency)? Or 50mW (50%)? A higher efficiency can will sound louder for a given power...

The efficiency in converting electric power to acoustic power (sound) is not at all a measure of sonic quality. At times, it is to the contrary. Clearly one may strive for high efficiency for small battery portable headphones, that will make the battery last longer between charges. But making the highest quality sound often requires putting the high efficiency requirment aside in favor for better fidelity.

Headphones do not require much power, so efficiency is usually not much of a consideration (other then for small portable devices).

Yes, I can drive my HD650 into "soft clipping" but that is at very high levels, above what I use. The maximum rating of 500mW is a point that you do not want to reach, it is way too loud. At such levels, the device will not break down but will distort. You do not need a tube amp to drive .5 Watt into the HD650. Yor amp and my DA11 will do that, just set the volume to max. But my advice is not to wear the headphone when you do that, you may end up with some hearing loss...

Regards
Dan Lavry

 

[IPodPJ]

Wow, that's great to know! Thank you, Dan. Everything you said makes perfect sense and answered all of my questions. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond so thoroughly.