The PANASONIC RP-HTF600-S headphones. More fun than the HD650?
Nov 2, 2011 at 9:28 PM Post #1,261 of 2,849


Quote:
Real time update on my burn-in:
 
- 3 hrs: Sound still muffled, but bass is starting to open up. It is beating my CAL!s on amount and impact.
- 6 hrs: Where did the bass go? I notice a reduction in bass, but the mids and highs are starting to open up.
- 14 hrs: They are starting to sound better, highs are clearer, vocals still a little muffled, some of the bass came back. I am starting to have trouble differentiating between the Panasonics and my CAL!s.
- 24 hrs: Most of the bass is back, vocals are clearer but overall a little bit darker than my CAL!s.
 
I know that some of the comments suggest to not listen to them until 50 hrs. I just find it interesting that they are indeed changing, and I am learning to appreciate the importance of burn in by savoring the process.




This is something that everybody should do. Learn by trusting your ear, and have fun. People who critisize buying cans this cheap and having fun modding them are......I rather not say, don't want to be banned.
 
Nov 2, 2011 at 9:42 PM Post #1,263 of 2,849
Grabbed a pair for $30 on Amazon (refurbished). They should be here by Friday since I went ahead and signed up for a free trial of Amazon prime 
smily_headphones1.gif

 
Nov 2, 2011 at 10:27 PM Post #1,264 of 2,849
I just received a pair of HTF600's today, and these are my initial impressions at the very beginning of the burn-in process:
 
I'm coming from bass-light HiFiMan Re-ZERO's, so I was expecting the bass on these to be shocking or borderline overwhelming.  Instead of being totally insane, the bass actually seems very well balanced with the mids.  Since these are being labeled as basshead cans, I'm very curious whether this is nearly as bassy as it get for headphoness, or whether the XB500, Ultrasone HFI-580, and Ultrasone Pro 900 have significantly more impact.  I mainly wonder because I have an über-basshead cousin who is bound to waste money on the Beats Studio unless he's shocked and awed by another pair of headphones.
wink.gif

 
That said, the bass is in no way lacking for any normal listener.  It's very satisfying to me, and I might even be a closet basshead: I do own a set of Logitech Z-5500's, after all.  Aside from the missing bodily impact, it almost sounds like I'm listening to speakers.  In fact, the bass seems to have a more visceral impact than it did when I first started listening to them.  I was originally slightly disappointed after expecting to be blown away, but I'm gradually getting more impressed with the bass as time goes on.  It definitely extends very low, and it still has quite good volume in the 30-35Hz range.  The bass also pretty high-quality to my ears, and it can hit quickly and decay much faster than what I'm used to (boomy Z-5500 bass).  It might bleed into the midrange a little, but it doesn't seem to be a problem so far in my listening.  All in all, I think the bass is excellent for headphones in general, let alone a model this inexpensive.
 
The mids are quite prominent on these headphones, and they balance out the bass very well.  My only real complaint with the mids is that the upper mids can be harsh in certain frequencies.  They seem to have a spike somewhere (or some ringing, or intermodulation distortion, or something), but my graphic equalizer is too coarse to pinpoint and correct it.  This may be the "sibilance" that people refer to on these boards, and it's really the limiting factor for the volume these headphones can be played at.  I noticed it in quite a few tracks, and it also seemed present in Olivia Ong's voice in her How Insensitive track (which Wind06 posted here to showcase the HD598's).
 
Other than the spike in the upper mids, the highs are the HTF600's biggest failing.  I was too interested in the mids and bass at first to realize what was missing, but after some time it became apparent that the highs are VERY rolled off and distant sounding.  It's not subtle at all, and it makes the music sound muffled and hollow, like you're listening to speakers or a live performance through a [thin, light] wooden door.  Thankfully, a bit of very coarse equalization can open them up tremendously:  If I add about 5dB to everything around 2kHz and up, the highs become pretty well balanced with the bass and mids.
 
In terms of texture and detail, the HTF600's are definitely not high-fidelity, but pretty much everyone agrees there.  My Re-ZERO's have far more texture and definition to them, whereas the HTF600's seem significantly smoother, slower, and warmer.  The much stronger bass adds atmosphere and impact that the Re-ZERO's are lacking (without equalization) though, because the bass is so light on those that low-frequency detail is usually too faint to notice.  Despite the muffled highs and smoothed away detail, the HTF600's provide pretty good clarity and separation for the elements that are present.  The soundstage is better than I expected for my first closed headphone, and the imaging is much better than my Re-ZERO's (which are said to have "hazy" imaging, a characterization I totally agree with).
 
One very strange thing about the HTF600 is that I'm getting "crackling" sounds every once in a while.  I'm not sure if those are from the driver flexing or changing, or if they're part of some sources, or if they happen when the driver gets overwhelmed with complexity, or what...but it was something I noticed, and I hope it goes away.
 
Overall, my initial opinion on the HTF600 is mixed:  On the one hand, I'm very impressed with what they CAN do.  I have six points of reference:
  1. HiFiMan Re-ZERO's
  2. Logitech Z-5500 speakers
  3. iPod earbuds
  4. Horrendous RCA HPNC100 headphones for $19.99 (I think I paid $29.99 a few years ago though)
  5. Some pretty good budget headphones I bought in the early 2000's for ~$20 and used for years until they were broken beyond repair, because they kicked the crap out of other headphones I had heard.  I have no idea what the model was though.
  6. Real-life acoustic performances
 
Given my reference points, the HTF600's roughly equalized sound definitely reaches the level I'd expect from a product that's around $100 or more, not $30...especially given the fully satisfying bass.  If I had the usual expensive reference points like the Sennheiser HD600 or HD650, I might even adjust that upward (though I'd only know for sure if I could actually compare).  However, I'm also disappointed with the HTF600's shortcomings so far, especially the weak highs.  Their unequalized sound is much more limited and prevents them from being fantastic overall performers out of the box...or with sources that can't be equalized.
 
I'm definitely reserving final judgment for a LONG time though:  These babies have a strong weakness out of the box, but I'd like to see if burn-in helps to alleviate it.  Hopefully it does...I love these headphones with equalization (they'll never have hi-fi detail, but they have a very musical and fun sound), but it would be very nice to enjoy them as thoroughly without it.
 
Nov 2, 2011 at 10:51 PM Post #1,265 of 2,849
@SobbingWallet Nice impressions. I think that is how many see it minus the guys that just plainly don't like them for whatever their reasons maybe. As per the highs, it is a shame that these HTF600s don't come with the velours or better pads. Comparing the original pads to the Beyer velours. The velours have holes on the bottom of the pads while also being a cloth like material the very first thing I noticed when switching the pads was the slight increase in the highs balancing out the cans even more so. Then I would suppose we would be talking about a $50 headphone vs a $30 one..
 
Burn in does change the sound for the better and they become better all around. I think they will grow on you more so once you get yours burn in. It is interesting how the sound does change on these. For guys that just don't believe in burn in. These Panasonics will surprise you and make you think again about burn in.
 
Again the positives outweigh the negatives on these to warrant a purchase. I did notice the price on these have jumped up to almost $60.. That would be a negative..But I also noticed many headphones have jumped up in price on Amazon.. They must be getting ready to cash in for the Holidays.
 
Nov 2, 2011 at 11:13 PM Post #1,266 of 2,849
I really would like to see a head to head comparing between these and the xb500
categlories for comparing should be amped vs amped, unamped vs unamped and equed vs equed vs default natural sound. 
RPGwizard, how about it? 
 
Nov 2, 2011 at 11:52 PM Post #1,267 of 2,849


Quote:
@SobbingWallet Nice impressions. I think that is how many see it minus the guys that just plainly don't like them for whatever their reasons maybe. As per the highs, it is a shame that these HTF600s don't come with the velours or better pads. Comparing the original pads to the Beyer velours. The velours have holes on the bottom of the pads while also being a cloth like material the very first thing I noticed when switching the pads was the slight increase in the highs balancing out the cans even more so. Then I would suppose we would be talking about a $50 headphone vs a $30 one..
 
Burn in does change the sound for the better and they become better all around. I think they will grow on you more so once you get yours burn in. It is interesting how the sound does change on these. For guys that just don't believe in burn in. These Panasonics will surprise you and make you think again about burn in.
 
Again the positives outweigh the negatives on these to warrant a purchase. I did notice the price on these have jumped up to almost $60.. That would be a negative..But I also noticed many headphones have jumped up in price on Amazon.. They must be getting ready to cash in for the Holidays.



Thanks, and thank you also for bringing this model to everyone's attention in the first place.  For the price, I definitely agree that the positives outweigh the negatives.  Really, the flaws only become relevant once we start pitting them against pricier headphones...and even then, more than one person has stated that the highs open up after burn-in, so I'm holding out plenty of hope for improvement.
smile.gif

 
You say the velour pads have holes on the bottom.   Are you referring to the flat area on the inside, directly above the driver?  I could definitely see that affecting the highs, though the pads cost so much relative to the headphones themselves that I'd be reluctant to buy them.
 
As a side note, I have to agree with everyone that has praised the HTF600's comfort.  The cups and pads are bigger and softer than I expected, and I can keep them on without the slightest discomfort.  They get a bit warm after a while, but it's nothing irritating.  While I don't have too many points of reference, these are honestly more comfortable than I expected headphones could get.
 
I'll throw in a few words about build quality too:  The housing seems to be well-built, but a few people have had issues with channel imbalances and such (especially after impacts), so looks may be deceiving.  Some people have complained about the cable, but I wanted to point out that there's nothing actually wrong with it; it's simply a decent [but lengthy] cable that belongs on sub-$50 headphones (like these), not really expensive ones.  When you're looking for a diamond in the rough, you have to expect the trappings won't be especially luxurious.
wink.gif

 
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 2:37 AM Post #1,268 of 2,849
Hmmmm...I may want to revise my impressions already.
 
I can't say for sure how many hours I've been breaking these in, since I'm not strictly keeping track, and I've only had music playing on and off.  I'd put it around 4-6 hours maybe.
 
It turns out I made a silly mistake with my rough equalization:  Since I merely bumped the high frequencies up a few dB, I was actually making things louder...and you know what they say about making comparisons that aren't volume-matched, right?
wink.gif
  People tend to prefer the louder option...which is exactly what I was doing.  A little bit ago, I decided to correct this and adjust my software equalizer settings to ensure closer overall volumes.
 
Given a fair comparison at equal volume, the difference between the stock frequency response and an adjusted response with boosted highs is not actually as blatant as I previously thought.  (I toggle the equalizer on and off in mid-track to compare.)  My initial treble adjustment might also be turning out to be slightly bright.  I'm not sure if I'm just noticing this over time, or if the highs are indeed opening up as the headphones break in.  Either way, the difference now appears somewhat more subtle than I originally indicated.  I'd still characterize the HTF600 as dark and slightly muffled for now, but I'm definitely less inclined to fault them than I was before.  I'm looking forward to further improvements, whether they're the real or "placebo" variety.
smily_headphones1.gif

 
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 4:00 AM Post #1,269 of 2,849
^ In the upper-mids / highs I've applied as follows (but then again I also boosted the deep bass quite a bit)
 
2K:  +0.9
4K:  +1.4
8K:  +2.0
16K: +3.1 
 
Whit the stock pads obviously and it sounds balanced to me. Possibly just veery slightly on the warmer side still which is how I prefer it. While HTF600 may be on the darker side there's lots of headphones that's darker sounding. The popular AKG K518DJ / K81 for example.
 
I'm thinking of getting a pair of M-Audio Q40 to compare against these as I suspect these 2 may be the most similar sounding headphones. I'm getting a bit frustrated at the build quality of these HTF600 (which would be a first as I'm not the guy that cares much about the build, I'm usually just interested in the sound) due to having dropped them once seems to be enough to affect the balance in the left/right channels so it more easily dislocates and you have to blow onto the driver to get it back in position again, it's a bit like dislocating a shoulder, if it happens once it's gonna happen easier in the future too and it seems enough if I just adjust the left side a bit too hasty on my head it might happen now. The right driver hasn't been affected whatsoever as it didn't when it dropped either, only the left side. As for now it sounds balanced and I've only needed to do it twice but I keep wondering for how long until again it dislocates, perhaps in middle of an online gaming session etc... I don't like channel imbalances whatsoever, even if it's a very small variation (probably less than 2dB difference) I notice it.
 
EDIT: Just placed an order for M-Audio Q40 so will be interesting to hear how these 2 compares like.
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 8:06 AM Post #1,270 of 2,849


Quote:
Originally Posted by SobbingWallet /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I'm not sure if I'm just noticing this over time, or if the highs are indeed opening up as the headphones break in.  Either way, the difference now appears somewhat more subtle than I originally indicated.  I'd still characterize the HTF600 as dark and slightly muffled for now, but I'm definitely less inclined to fault them than I was before.  I'm looking forward to further improvements, whether they're the real or "placebo" variety.
smily_headphones1.gif

 


Welcome to Head-Fi. Nice contributions thus far.
 
With all due respect, it's amazing how a $30 headphone has such significant changes after various stages of break-in. I'm not poking fun at you or anybody else, but I do wonder if indeed the placebo effect is fully in effect due to the fact that an inexpensive headphone actually produces an acceptable sound for some. And that sound just keeps "improving" every time one realized how little they paid for them.  
 
My previous post, which caused hissy-fits, was trying to point out that a cheap piece of steak cannot be tweaked and turned into a Filet Mignon. If some want to have fun trying, go ahead, just sayin'..speaking from experience, best to save up and get something really good, it's an investment.
 
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 8:30 AM Post #1,271 of 2,849
^ I wouldn't mind paying if I could actually find what I'm looking for. Here's a frequency response graph of M-Audio Q40 which looks exactly how I'd interpret this HTF600 to sound like except the peak around 8~10kHz which HTF600 definitely doesn't have. The red line represents roughly what would be the ideal response for me:
 

 
It's hard to find my preferred sound signature which is about 11~13 dB or so elevation in the bass, as nicely flat extending bass down to 15~20Hz or so as possible that starts to roll-off in the upper end somewhere around ~250Hz with as forward mids as possible, wouldn't hurt to be a few 1~3dB over "zero-level" even and the highs quite neutral or just tiny bit rolled-off (emphasized highs that's elevated above mids is a big no-no for me). Hopefully these Q40 will sound similar to HTF600 the way I interpret them to sound like comparing to this graph, possibly offering slightly better soundstage yet, I do like the up-front position in these HTF600 which makes it sound like I'm on the stage with the band surrounding me but I'd want a little bigger stage. 
 
I bet you can't either give a more "highend" alternative that would meet my wishes no matter what budget we're talking about. Flat response isn't the optimal for every1.
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM Post #1,272 of 2,849
Real time update on my burn-in:
 
- 3 hrs: Sound still muffled, but bass is starting to open up. It is beating my CAL!s on amount and impact.
- 6 hrs: Where did the bass go? I notice a reduction in bass, but the mids and highs are starting to open up.
- 14 hrs: They are starting to sound better, highs are clearer, vocals still a little muffled, some of the bass came back. I am starting to have trouble differentiating between the Panasonics and my CAL!s.
- 24 hrs: Most of the bass is back, vocals are clearer but overall a little bit darker than my CAL!s.
- 36 hrs: Not much change
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 10:59 AM Post #1,273 of 2,849


Quote:
^ In the upper-mids / highs I've applied as follows (but then again I also boosted the deep bass quite a bit)
 
2K:  +0.9
4K:  +1.4
8K:  +2.0
16K: +3.1 
 
Whit the stock pads obviously and it sounds balanced to me. Possibly just veery slightly on the warmer side still which is how I prefer it. While HTF600 may be on the darker side there's lots of headphones that's darker sounding. The popular AKG K518DJ / K81 for example.
 
I'm thinking of getting a pair of M-Audio Q40 to compare against these as I suspect these 2 may be the most similar sounding headphones. I'm getting a bit frustrated at the build quality of these HTF600 (which would be a first as I'm not the guy that cares much about the build, I'm usually just interested in the sound) due to having dropped them once seems to be enough to affect the balance in the left/right channels so it more easily dislocates and you have to blow onto the driver to get it back in position again, it's a bit like dislocating a shoulder, if it happens once it's gonna happen easier in the future too and it seems enough if I just adjust the left side a bit too hasty on my head it might happen now. The right driver hasn't been affected whatsoever as it didn't when it dropped either, only the left side. As for now it sounds balanced and I've only needed to do it twice but I keep wondering for how long until again it dislocates, perhaps in middle of an online gaming session etc... I don't like channel imbalances whatsoever, even if it's a very small variation (probably less than 2dB difference) I notice it.
 
EDIT: Just placed an order for M-Audio Q40 so will be interesting to hear how these 2 compares like.

I appreciate you posting you EQ settings. Are those values the db settings or the q settings?  What should I do with both? Thanks RPGwizard,
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 11:54 AM Post #1,274 of 2,849


Quote:
Welcome to Head-Fi. Nice contributions thus far.
 
With all due respect, it's amazing how a $30 headphone has such significant changes after various stages of break-in. I'm not poking fun at you or anybody else, but I do wonder if indeed the placebo effect is fully in effect due to the fact that an inexpensive headphone actually produces an acceptable sound for some. And that sound just keeps "improving" every time one realized how little they paid for them.  
 
My previous post, which caused hissy-fits, was trying to point out that a cheap piece of steak cannot be tweaked and turned into a Filet Mignon. If some want to have fun trying, go ahead, just sayin'..speaking from experience, best to save up and get something really good, it's an investment.
 



Most of the changes reported from burn-in come out sounding more intense than they actually are. At least in my case, it's hard to articulate in words something you've heard with your ears. I am a big burn-in sceptic, but after experiencing these headphones, I have to admit that they did change. Not a lot, but it was detectable.
 
As for turning cheap steak into filet mignon...I own HD 600's and enjoy them immensely. I also really love a good filet Mignon, but sometimes I'm in the mood for a hamburger.
 
 
Nov 3, 2011 at 12:03 PM Post #1,275 of 2,849
 
Quote:
I appreciate you posting you EQ settings. Are those values the db settings or the q settings?  What should I do with both? Thanks RPGwizard,

 
Well some EQs dB ratings aren't that accurate (especially iTunes), but I think this EQ's values I use are reasonably accurate, both this EQ I use with the kX Audio drivers for my Audigy 2 ZS as well as a X-Fi Titanium HD's EQ values provided pretty much similar change with same values so.
 
Here's the settings I use put in an excel graph but I'm a basshead though and want equally strong mid and subbass response so had to boost the deep bass quite a bit to match that very strong mid/upper bass of HTF600.
 
(click to zoom in)

 

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