[beowulf]

I said performance, distortion, lack of clarity, small soundstage, wooly bass. Performance being non frequency balance related or build. In the US the difference is 1699 vs 2299. Ill give you 500 bonus dollars for the build. Then you still have much worse performance for the price. Maybe a more enjoyable sound signature but a worse performance nonetheless.

Can't agree on "distortion and lack of clarity". My initial impression with the Z1R was of a certain lack of resolution, call it clarity, probably due to the darker signature, a bit of a veil. With time I noticed that they are extremely revealing, lacking nothing in clarity. Often I noticed tiny details with the 800S and 800 (which are very, very resolving) and amazingly, they were still there with the Z1R. Even better, they're there even at low volumes. So my ears don't agree on that one, although in an immediate switch A:B with Z1R:800, the sense of extra grain/sharpness/detail is immediate, but mostly a perception caused by the extra brightness of the 800.

Soundstage, yes, of course the Z1R can't compare. But while we can compare the previous aspects, there's no point in comparing air. In Z1R's defense, I think it is brilliant in this aspect, for a closed can, but yeah, total loss here compared to good open models. Despite the smaller soundstage, the Z1R have excellent separation and positioning tho.

Regarding the bass, that's a trickier area. I won't even dare getting into that, so I'll agree. Finally, your view of the bonus for build seems reasonable, I'd say. It does add value, but of course, if one does not enjoy the sound (as you do not) there is no amount of quality build and comfort that will make up for it.

Just as a brief aside (not trying to steer the topic off course), I wanted to address the perception that homemade = lower quality. I have a decent amount of woodworking experience and I assure you that the quality of Zach's work is extremely high. You must keep in mind that the driver housing itself is also made out of wood, not just the cup, unlike something like the Fostex woodies which are molded housings with a wood cup on the back. Wood is not an easy material to work with and building headphones out of the stuff is very challenging. However, I think the 100% wood construction contributes to the unique sound of the Atticus / Eikon. Zach has basically made miniature wood speaker cabinets for the ears. The design is quite impressive actually and the quality of the head band and aluminum gimbals is also extremely high. Zach basically tuned these by ear, trying out different cup dimensions, porting and dampening materials / placement until he achieved the desired sound, much like speaker designers. When you look at the amount of handwork that goes into each headphone, the ZMF's actually seem very reasonably priced, especially since Zach gives you the option to customize by choosing different woods, finishes and metal colors. If anything, the Z1R should cost less than the ZMF's because they are made in a fully automated factory with little to no handwork. .

Two small notes on this one: I didn't mention ZMF in particular, but still retain my opinion about some of the "garage-assembled" offerings in the market, when compared to models like the Z1R in Utopia, considering purely materials and build. That said, I have a lot of respect for Zach's products and builds, he's definitely doing a good job, but there will be room for improvement, which is normal in the progress of the company. I find the prices a bit on the high side, but that is understandable due to the [lack of] economies of scale.

And finally, regarding the comment in bold on the Sony, I believe you're thinking of other Sony models. The Z1R is hand-assembled and QC'ed in Tokyo, by what you'd call trained artisans. It's not a "fully automated factory" and there isn't such a huge difference, except of course in the machinery they can use to craft them. Not the same as an assembly line pumping out Beats in China. This might - by the way - one of the reasons why the Z1R is a bit pricier than other models with a higher sales volume/more automation on the assembly line (and cheaper labour markets)

There are many articles/videos about this Z1R assembly and QA process.
I'll edit and post the detailed ones if I find them, for now:

Everyone keeps trying to be "right". The Z1R is awesome. Oops, I may have just offended someone. I'm quietly going back to What are you listening to right now.

Just enjoy it

 

[spwath]

Do note measurements can be different, even from the same headphone. I think the headphones are the same, but the measurements are different. Like here, I measured the MDR Z1R- one matches tylls, one matches judes.

 

[nc8000]

Just as a brief aside (not trying to steer the topic off course), I wanted to address the perception that homemade = lower quality. I have a decent amount of woodworking experience and I assure you that the quality of Zach's work is extremely high. You must keep in mind that the driver housing itself is also made out of wood, not just the cup, unlike something like the Fostex woodies which are molded housings with a wood cup on the back. Wood is not an easy material to work with and building headphones out of the stuff is very challenging. However, I think the 100% wood construction contributes to the unique sound of the Atticus / Eikon. Zach has basically made miniature wood speaker cabinets for the ears. The design is quite impressive actually and the quality of the head band and aluminum gimbals is also extremely high. Zach basically tuned these by ear, trying out different cup dimensions, porting and dampening materials / placement until he achieved the desired sound, much like speaker designers. When you look at the amount of handwork that goes into each headphone, the ZMF's actually seem very reasonably priced, especially since Zach gives you the option to customize by choosing different woods, finishes and metal colors. If anything, the Z1R should cost less than the ZMF's because they are made in a fully automated factory with little to no handwork. Sony is able to do everything in house while Zach has to source his drivers and raw materials from outside vendors which also drives up the cost. The fact that a guy building small batch handmade products in his garage is able to beat Sony in terms of cost and performance is pretty remarkable in my opinion. The whole point of headphones is to give you sound quality that rivals speakers in a more compact and affordable package. There is no headphone that should cost more than $1200 - $1500. This idiotic pricing trend needs to stop. What Sony is charging isn't based on anything other than "Well I guess it's our flagship so we should charge X to make them seem super special." You can get away with that when your product is exceptional (Utopia, Stax 009, Sony R10). Is the Z1R $2300 exceptional? Thats up to you to decide. You are turned off by ZMF's DIY aesthetic. I'm turned off by Sony's nonsensical pricing. Different strokes I guess.

As far as I'm aware Z1R is hand assembled by just one man in Japan, but I guess that might just be a myth.

Also I don't think anybody other than the people at Sony actually know what it cost to research, develop and manufacture the Z1R. Add to that that both Sony and their dealers (and perhaps distributers) need to make a profit selling them (that is how business works and I have no idea what the mark up is at each level) then the price will go up.

 

[Imperfectionist]

... The Z1R is hand-assembled and QC'ed in Tokyo, by what you'd call trained artisans. It's not a "fully automated factory" and there isn't such a huge difference, except of course in the machinery they can use to craft them. Not the same as an assembly line pumping out Beats in China. This might - by the way - one of the reasons why the Z1R is a bit pricier than other models with a higher sales volume/more automation on the assembly line (and cheaper labour markets)

There are many articles/videos about this Z1R assembly and QA process.
I'll edit and post the detailed ones if I find them, for now:




Just enjoy it

I was waiting for someone to correct him...and you came... Good job

 

[headr]

As an aside, I think the last several pages should be considered very carefully concerning the type of discussion that head-fi wants to continue to have on this community. Until now, much of the discussion of measurements and related concepts have been side lined to the "Sound Science" sub forum.

I think that approach has generally worked well for the community, to avoid a bunch of discussion regarding looking at graphs and measurements and arguing over the smallest details of the smallest measurements. Is this distortion audible? Does this deviation from a flat frequency response mean the performance is worse? Is a resonance which appears in a frequency response at 100 DB a sure sign this headphone is garbage? Should we be targeting diffuse field or Harman curve, and which headphone which targets which curve is objectively better?

I have found that when audio communities open themselves up to wholesale discussion of measurements, the entire conversation turns to one about graphs. Imagine that every thread about every piece of equipment resembled the conversation happening over the last few pages in this thread. Head-fi would be unrecognizable.

I think discussion of measurements certainly has their place, but I worry about the conversation being dominated, and that in turn driving away contributors who can understand the context of the current state of research regarding what measurements can really tell you about the quality of a headphone - which ultimately isn't as much as people tend to assume.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Well at this point I'm still thinking the jury is out where measurements are concerned, but for a moment lets just assume the distortion in the above chart is correct, and I freely admit it could be. Despite that, in terms of practical impact, I don't think you would really hear that distortion that prominently anyway. I say that as when I use the Z1R with really dynamic well mastered material, or okay electronica I really don't detect this overblown distortion so even if it is there I would have to wonder what the practical implication is anyway? I'm not saying this is fact, but it looks like at most 4% of the signal would be distortion, that still leaves 96% distortion free (simplifying things I know) so I have to think that I would mostly detect fairly clean signals. Is it the best THD I have seen, nope, but I can still say that it sounds quite good to my ears, but I like that signature so others will differ.

 

[Sonic Defender]

I think discussion of measurements certainly has their place, but I worry about the conversation being dominated, and that in turn driving away contributors who can understand the context of the current state of research regarding what measurements can really tell you about the quality of a headphone - which ultimately isn't as much as people tend to assume.

Guilty as charged, and I will say that you are correct, in general getting really bogged down in these conversations isn't the best approach. The thread will get back on track despite this huge swing of the pendulum. It is however also important to try and get alternative views out there so that people who are considering the Z1R get the breadth of opinion and experience. We know people who are flagging the Z1R are doing so quite a bit with measurement which does kind of force those who want to at least offer their take on it to use their subjective experience and relate it to the measurement arguments.

 

[MacedonianHero]

double post

 

[MacedonianHero]

Can't agree on "distortion and lack of clarity". My initial impression with the Z1R was of a certain lack of resolution, call it clarity, probably due to the darker signature, a bit of a veil. With time I noticed that they are extremely revealing, lacking nothing in clarity. Often I noticed tiny details with the 800S and 800 (which are very, very resolving) and amazingly, they were still there with the Z1R. Even better, they're there even at low volumes. So my ears don't agree on that one, although in an immediate switch A:B with Z1R:800, the sense of extra grain/sharpness/detail is immediate, but mostly a perception caused by the extra brightness of the 800.

Soundstage, yes, of course the Z1R can't compare. But while we can compare the previous aspects, there's no point in comparing air. In Z1R's defense, I think it is brilliant in this aspect, for a closed can, but yeah, total loss here compared to good open models. Despite the smaller soundstage, the Z1R have excellent separation and positioning tho.

Regarding the bass, that's a trickier area. I won't even dare getting into that, so I'll agree. Finally, your view of the bonus for build seems reasonable, I'd say. It does add value, but of course, if one does not enjoy the sound (as you do not) there is no amount of quality build and comfort that will make up for it.




Two small notes on this one: I didn't mention ZMF in particular, but still retain my opinion about some of the "garage-assembled" offerings in the market, when compared to models like the Z1R in Utopia, considering purely materials and build. That said, I have a lot of respect for Zach's products and builds, he's definitely doing a good job, but there will be room for improvement, which is normal in the progress of the company. I find the prices a bit on the high side, but that is understandable due to the [lack of] economies of scale.

And finally, regarding the comment in bold on the Sony, I believe you're thinking of other Sony models. The Z1R is hand-assembled and QC'ed in Tokyo, by what you'd call trained artisans. It's not a "fully automated factory" and there isn't such a huge difference, except of course in the machinery they can use to craft them. Not the same as an assembly line pumping out Beats in China. This might - by the way - one of the reasons why the Z1R is a bit pricier than other models with a higher sales volume/more automation on the assembly line (and cheaper labour markets)

There are many articles/videos about this Z1R assembly and QA process.
I'll edit and post the detailed ones if I find them, for now:





Just enjoy it

Thanks for that video! Very cool and impressive assembly process.

 

[daltonlanny]

And personally, I think any headphone over $1000 is overpriced. I still remember the days when the HD650, K701 or DT880 were the priciest TOTL headphones.

I have no horse in this race but, this is the most sensible statement on this entire site, and I agree with Peter 100% here!
Prices are totally out of control on most all high-end headphones, and are getting higher and higher by the day, imho.

 

[thatonenoob]

@up late no car expert here...but maybe a Lexus?

 

[AxelCloris]

I've gone through and removed the recent personal comments from the thread. We're here to discuss the MDR-Z1R as well as the recent measurements topic, not each other. Please keep the posts on-topic and off our fellow Head-Fi'ers.

 

[thatonenoob]

FTR, I was turned off by the ZMF DIY nature AND sound. To my ears, the Z1Rs are still my go to closed headphone. My next choice would be the Ether C Flow or new LCD-XC. That's about all I could recommend from a TOTL closed back headphone.

And personally, I think any headphone over $1000 is overpriced. I still remember the days when the HD650, K701 or DT880 were the priciest TOTL headphones.

I've yet to hear the new ZMF headphones, so I'll reserve my judgement there.. I do agree with your assessment on the Ether C Flow and LCD-XC. I really enjoy the XC, but it is an example where design/ weight put me off completely. It's really hard to wear the XC for extended periods of time.

 

[canali]

FTR, I was turned off by the ZMF DIY nature AND sound. To my ears, the Z1Rs are still my go to closed headphone. My next choice would be the Ether C Flow or new LCD-XC. That's about all I could recommend from a TOTL closed back headphone.

And personally, I think any headphone over $1000 is overpriced. I still remember the days when the HD650, K701 or DT880 were the priciest TOTL headphones.

agree on the stupid prices ...not just cans but
also look at theTia Forte iems @ US$3600 by 64 Audio...
or Audeze new lcd i4 iems @ US$2500..just nuts man
...hence the thread ''It's got to stop'' https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/its-got-to-stop.850283/

i was considering sending my sony z1r into sonarworks for calibration...E$99 plus E$9 return shipping fee.
anyone also considered this?...or has anyone ever used their services and found them worthwhile?
(I know you can buy the software, i'm talking of them doing it for you)
https://www.sonarworks.com/headphones

 

[nordkapp]

I have no horse in this race but, this is the most sensible statement on this entire site, and I agree with Peter 100% here!
Prices are totally out of control on most all high-end headphones, and are getting higher and higher by the day, imho.

Sadly, this is factually correct. Headphones and related kit are going the way of 2 channel stereo. Egregious pricing.