[TSAVJason]

Just as a brief aside (not trying to steer the topic off course), I wanted to address the perception that homemade = lower quality. I have a decent amount of woodworking experience and I assure you that the quality of Zach's work is extremely high. You must keep in mind that the driver housing itself is also made out of wood, not just the cup, unlike something like the Fostex woodies which are molded housings with a wood cup on the back. Wood is not an easy material to work with and building headphones out of the stuff is very challenging. However, I think the 100% wood construction contributes to the unique sound of the Atticus / Eikon. Zach has basically made miniature wood speaker cabinets for the ears. The design is quite impressive actually and the quality of the head band and aluminum gimbals is also extremely high. Zach basically tuned these by ear, trying out different cup dimensions, porting and dampening materials / placement until he achieved the desired sound, much like speaker designers. When you look at the amount of handwork that goes into each headphone, the ZMF's actually seem very reasonably priced, especially since Zach gives you the option to customize by choosing different woods, finishes and metal colors. If anything, the Z1R should cost less than the ZMF's because they are made in a fully automated factory with little to no handwork. Sony is able to do everything in house while Zach has to source his drivers and raw materials from outside vendors which also drives up the cost. The fact the a guy building small batch handmade products in his garage is able to beat Sony in terms of cost and performance is pretty remarkable in my opinion. The whole point of headphones is to give you sound quality that rivals speakers in a more compact and affordable package. There is no headphone that should cost more than $1200 - $1500. This idiotic pricing trend needs to stop. What Sony is charging isn't based on anything other than "Well I guess it's our flagship so we should charge X to make them seem super special." You can get away with that when your product is exceptional (Utopia, Stax 009, Sony R10). Is the Z1R $2300 exceptional? Thats up to you to decide. You are turned off by ZMF's DIY aesthetic. I'm turned off by Sony's nonsensical pricing. Different strokes I guess.

We became a dealer for ZMF because we saw an improved build quality on an already good sounding headphone and at their individual price points they have been deemed by us and our clients that purchased them to be a great value for performance and build quality. - for what it's worth - Our opinion at TSAV

 

[nanaholic]

I said performance, distortion, lack of clarity, small soundstage, wooly bass.

You've only stated a bunch of subjective preferences which doesn't really amount to objective performance.

Distortion: jury's still out on that one, Jude didn't measure problematic distortion on his samples
Lack of clarity: subjective with no objective standard. Flip it around one can equally say that HD800s are "too bright"
Small soundstage: again subjective and no objective standard of what constitute as "best soundstage size" (hell can we even measure soundstage? or define what is "accurate soundstage" if we go with objective measurements? because obviously if we go with "accurate soundstage" as an objective standard, you cannot be too big or too small but rather there is a neutral accurate size, just like a neutral FR). The flip of it would be saying HD800 sounding too hollow
Wooly bass: again jury's still out on that one

your definition of performance is problematic at best, purely subjective at worse and makes it no better nor have more credibility than the other side.

 

[TSAVJason]

You've only stated a bunch of subjective preferences which doesn't really amount to objective performance.

Distortion: jury's still out on that one, Jude didn't measure problematic distortion on his samples
Lack of clarity: subjective with no objective standard. Flip it around one can equally say that HD800s are "too bright"
Small soundstage: again subjective and no objective standard of what constitute as "best soundstage size" (hell can we even measure soundstage? or define what is "accurate soundstage" if we go with objective measurements?). The flip of it would be saying HD800 sounding too hollow
Wooly bass: again jury's still out on that one

your definition of performance is problematic at best, purely subjective at worse and makes it no better nor have more credibility than the other side.

It's an impression! His impression is as valid as any other.

 

[grizzlybeast]

You've only stated a bunch of subjective preferences which doesn't really amount to objective performance.

Distortion: jury's still out on that one, Jude didn't measure problematic distortion on his samples
Lack of clarity: subjective with no objective standard. Flip it around one can equally say that HD800s are "too bright"
Small soundstage: again subjective and no objective standard of what constitute as "best soundstage size" (hell can we even measure soundstage? or define what is "accurate soundstage" if we go with objective measurements? because obviously if we go with "accurate soundstage" as an objective standard, you cannot be too big or too small but rather there is a neutral accurate size, just like a neutral FR). The flip of it would be saying HD800 sounding too hollow
Wooly bass: again jury's still out on that one

your definition of performance is problematic at best, purely subjective at worse and makes it no better nor have more credibility than the other side.

JURY IS STILL OUT!!!!?????

There is also a point where certain subjective opinions become standards and norms for a culture.

How can the soundstage of the 800 be denied at this point.

 

[nanaholic]

It's an impression! His impression is as valid as any other.

He is applying a price tag to "performance" to judge the worth of the headphones. In his view he thinks the performance of the HD800 makes it worth the money, but the performance of the Z1R doesn't. So one naturally has to question what is this "performance" he speaks of. Then he listed a bunch of criteria, and I'm breaking down those criteria are not actually objectively true, but are rather quite subjective, which means using the same criteria, one can also argue the Z1R is not overpriced.

 

[nanaholic]

JURY IS STILL OUT!!!!

Ouch - How about you actually read Jude's post?

The graph above shows THD measured with the output level set at 90 dBSPL at 1kHz. Even when driven to 100 dBSPL at 1 kHz, bass region THD did not exceed 0.78%. In short, we are not showing bass distortion to be problematic at either 90 dBSPL or 100 dBSPL.

As I said, Jury is still out because THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE SITUATION IS. Jude thinks the bass distortion is not problematic and his measurements shows that, Tyll thinks the bass distortion is problematic and HIS measurements shows it too. The other data being presented are not conclusive either and we still don't even know if this is actually caused by defects or is intentional. So the conflicting data currently doesn't show a definitive conclusion which is exactly how I'm presenting it, to claim otherwise is the one who shows true ignorance and disrespect.

 

[nordkapp]

Everyone keeps trying to be "right". The Z1R is awesome. Oops, I may have just offended someone. I'm quietly going back to What are you listening to right now.

 

[TSAVJason]

It is not condescending in the least rather this is a rational discussion. He is applying a price tag to "performance" to judge the worth of the headphones. In his view he thinks the performance of the HD800 makes it worth the money, but the performance of the Z1R doesn't. So one naturally has to question what is this "performance" he speaks of. Then he listed a bunch of criteria, and I'm breaking down those criteria are not actually objectively true, but are rather quite subjective, which means using the same criteria, one can also argue the Z1R is not overpriced.

Yes he is and it reads as though he's prefaced it as his conclusion and not telling anyone it's the opinion that everyone should have.

 

[grizzlybeast]

Ouch - How about you actually read Jude's post?



As I said, Jury is still out because THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE SITUATION IS. Jude thinks the bass distortion is not problematic and his measurements shows that, Tyll thinks the bass distortion is problematic and HIS measurements shows it too. The conflicting data currently doesn't show a definitive conclusion which is exactly how I'm presenting it, to claim otherwise is the one who shows true ignorance.

 

[nanaholic]

Yes he is and it reads as though he's prefaced it as his conclusion and not telling anyone it's the opinion that everyone should have.

If that was the case then he wouldn't be saying things like " I guarantee that Sennheiser wouldn't put out that kind of performance at that price."

That's a pretty strong statement that is a bit more than an opinion - he is stating that some objective performance should be bought at a certain price, yet he has failed to quantify what those objective performance standard should be.

 

[nanaholic]

but it is not just Tylls measurements that show the distortion. Everyone elses measurements line up with Tylls. Then lets see how other TOTL headphones measure on the same rig comparatively. Even then let's see how only positive reviews are posted here.

I really must let go of the debater in me. I am also a little too blunt at times. So I won't discuss this anymore. I may already be in trouble.

New's flash - not everyone's measurements line up with Tyll's - that's why Jude and Tyll is agreeing to trade their phones and have them measured again with their respective setup. The only measurements that seems to agree at the moment is the peaks at 10kHz, but heck we can't even agree on the magnitude of that peak!

 

[sarinfuhrer]

JURY IS STILL OUT!!!!?????

There is also a point where certain subjective opinions become standards and norms for a culture.

How can the soundstage of the 800 be denied at this point.

Have hard time to fathom your post. At least Z1R didn't have spike at mids.

 

[sarinfuhrer]

ohh..
and eikon and those nasty peak even reached 10% THD. Z1R much better.

++credit Innerfidelity

 

[grizzlybeast]

^was specifically thinking of bass distortion, and also the 800.

 

[TSAVJason]

If that was the case then he wouldn't be saying things like " I guarantee that Sennheiser wouldn't put out that kind of performance at that price."

That's a pretty strong statement that is a bit more than an opinion - he is stating that some objective performance should be bought at a certain price, yet he has failed to quantify what those objective performance standard should be.

I appreciate your perspective but you are coming across condescending the way you write your ARGUMENT. It's just an opinion. For all you know he could be a Sennheiser Fan Boy ...so it makes no sense to be in contest with his OPINION. Your position is a lot like your determination to teach people that the Pentaconn was not a Sony manufacturered product. The posters were on your sane page but concidered it somewhat proprietary since Sony was the only known "user" of the connector at that time. Some battles aren't battles they are just the way they express their thoughts. No one has to word things the way you or I or anyone else does.