[Beagle]

And personally, I think any headphone over $1000 is overpriced. I still remember the days when the HD650, K701 or DT880 were the priciest TOTL headphones.

I agree 100%. I mean, they're headphones, not loudspeakers.

Of course, as long as there are power cords, speaker cables and interconnects going for $5000 a foot, I guess manufacturers should be able to charge whatever they want for something that actually makes sound.

 

[beowulf]

I've yet to hear the new ZMF headphones, so I'll reserve my judgement there.. I do agree with your assessment on the Ether C Flow and LCD-XC. I really enjoy the XC, but it is an example where design/ weight put me off completely. It's really hard to wear the XC for extended periods of time.

Something I've learned over these years in the hobby is that comfort is often underrated despite its vital importance.

You can be listening to the most amazing ethereal angel-singing orgasmic cans in the world, but of you're not comfortable due to weight, clamp, pad material, structure shape, etc, you're not going to enjoy them for long, regardless of that outstanding must-have-it 10/10 first impression.

For people who listen for longer than just meetings and short impressions, comfort is very important. I'd even dare say, no less important than sound quality.

Z1R are my reference for that at the moment in full size closed cans (perhaps when even including much lighter, airier open ones).

 

[Andrew Rieger]

And finally, regarding the comment in bold on the Sony, I believe you're thinking of other Sony models. The Z1R is hand-assembled and QC'ed in Tokyo, by what you'd call trained artisans. It's not a "fully automated factory" and there isn't such a huge difference, except of course in the machinery they can use to craft them. Not the same as an assembly line pumping out Beats in China. This might - by the way - one of the reasons why the Z1R is a bit pricier than other models with a higher sales volume/more automation on the assembly line (and cheaper labour markets)

Ok, sure, its not some assembly line Chinese product but given the vast resources Sony has at their disposal, the Z1R should cost far less than it does. Its more of a pride thing than anything else. They think their headphone is worth $2400. I happen to disagree based of measurements and subjective impressions.

I think the thing that irks me more is that companies like Fostex and Sony don't seem to get any feedback on their designs before they jump into full scale production. Does anyone else find it kind of amusing that Massdrop turns out better versions of headphones than the companies that built them originally? Why is that? Because of feedback. Massdrop isn't afraid to let moders go to town to improve sound quality and then incorporate some of these tweaks into production. The Fostex THX00, TX0, K7XX etc are all this way. I doubt anyone outside of Sony ever heard the Z1R before they settled on the production tooling. Of course you are going to think it sounds good, you designed it.

If the QC process is so rigorous, why are some copies measuring differently than others? Audeze and Focal have had the same problem. For the price they are asking, I would expect each copy to be measured on their rig of choice to confirm it is meeting the response curve of the final prototype before it even leaves the factory.

 

[nordkapp]

@TSAVJason. Do you sell the MDR Z1R? If so what kind of feedback were you getting from owners before and after Tyll's tear down? Owners only-not guys auditioning. Just curious since you are in the know.

 

[thatonenoob]

Ok, sure, its not some assembly line Chinese product but given the vast resources Sony has at their disposal, the Z1R should cost far less than it does. Its more of a pride thing than anything else. They think their headphone is worth $2400. I happen to disagree based of measurements and subjective impressions.

I think the thing that irks me more is that companies like Fostex and Sony don't seem to get any feedback on their designs before they jump into full scale production. Does anyone else find it kind of amusing that Massdrop turns out better versions of headphones than the companies that built them originally? Why is that? Because of feedback. Massdrop isn't afraid to let moders go to town to improve sound quality and then incorporate some of these tweaks into production. The Fostex THX00, TX0, K7XX etc are all this way. I doubt anyone outside of Sony ever heard the Z1R before they settled on the production tooling. Of course you are going to think it sounds good, you designed it.

If the QC process is so rigorous, why are some copies measuring differently than others? Audeze and Focal have had the same problem. For the price they are asking, I would expect each copy to be measured on their rig of choice to confirm it is meeting the response curve of the final prototype before it even leaves the factory.

First of all, it's not 2.4 K around the world. Singapore is 1.9 K USD, Indonesia was even cheaper - point is, it costs way less in Asia.

I'm pretty sure people heard it before Z1R went into full-scale production. Maybe it's not the direct community-designed feedback that you get from Massdrop, but it wasn't designed completely in the dark either. Mark Wilder, for example, was consulted. Also, let's not forget the HE-350?

And about the QC...sigh, it's been explained so many times. Different rigs measure differently....and to compare different rigs directly is just wrong. There is so little evidence of a QC problem - this can't even be deduced based on our current sample size. We need to determine whether it's a problem with procedure first before all these random conclusions start popping up.

 

[taktik]

And personally, I think any headphone over $1000 is overpriced. I still remember the days when the HD650, K701 or DT880 were the priciest TOTL headphones.

I don't agree with this. The current TOTL headphones are much better than the HD650, K701 or DT880, they are the result of years of research and development and they logically cost more. Recent headphones with the same level of quality as the old TOTL are still affordable and nobody forces you to spend $2k if you don't want it. Saying that any headphone over $1000 is overpriced seems to me as relevant as saying that any smartphone over $200 is overpriced or any meal over $15 is overpriced. The choice has been extended, the quality has been extended, the prices have been extended as well, that's it, and it's a good news for music lovers.

 

[Beagle]

I don't agree with this. The current TOTL headphones are much better than the HD650, K701 or DT880, they are the result of years of research and development and they logically cost more. Recent headphones with the same level of quality as the old TOTL are still affordable and nobody forces you to spend $2k if you don't want it. Saying that any headphone over $1000 is overpriced seems to me as relevant as saying that any smartphone over $200 is overpriced or any meal over $15 is overpriced. The choice has been extended, the quality has been extended, the prices have been extended as well, that's it, and it's a good news for music lovers.

Not necessarily. I would agree on some points if the expensive flagships actually brought more of the music to your ears. But it isn't necessarily the case IMO.

First of all, it's not 2.4 K around the world. Singapore is 1.9 K USD, Indonesia was even cheaper - point is, it costs way less in Asia.

$2999 in Canada, right next door to the USA.

 

[taktik]

Not necessarily. I would agree on some points if the expensive flagships actually brought more of the music to your ears. But it isn't necessarily the case IMO.

Of course not : some so-called TOTL headphones are far too expensive regarding their quality. That's the problem concerning the MDR-Z1R, and that's why there's 700+ pages in this thread to determine if they really deserve the $2k investment.

 

[nc8000]

Not necessarily. I would agree on some points if the expensive flagships actually brought more of the music to your ears. But it isn't necessarily the case IMO.


$2999 in Canada, right next door to the USA.

I assume that price is Canadian dollars making it about 2270 USD.

I bought mine from Amazon UK for about 1500 USD and that includes the 25% VAT that the Danish state demands on all purchases and that Sony can't do anything about.

To my ears and my taste the Z1R is significantly better than any of the 3 TOTL of yonder and much better built

 

[Andrew Rieger]

First of all, it's not 2.4 K around the world. Singapore is 1.9 K USD, Indonesia was even cheaper - point is, it costs way less in Asia.

I'm pretty sure people heard it before Z1R went into full-scale production. Maybe it's not the direct community-designed feedback that you get from Massdrop, but it wasn't designed completely in the dark either. Mark Wilder, for example, was consulted. Also, let's not forget the HE-350?

And about the QC...sigh, it's been explained so many times. Different rigs measure differently....and to compare different rigs directly is just wrong. There is so little evidence of a QC problem - this can't even be deduced based on our current sample size. We need to determine whether it's a problem with procedure first before all these random conclusions start popping up.

I'm not talking about Sony testing the headphone on different rigs, I'm talking about each copy being tested on Sony's measurement rig before it ships. Include a sheet that shows the response curve compared to the gold standard prototype measurement. Owners should have a factory measurement that they can compare to other measurements taken by members of the community.

 

[thatonenoob]

I'm not talking about Sony testing the headphone on different rigs, I'm talking about each copy being tested on Sony's measurement rig before it ships. Include a sheet that shows the response curve compared to the gold standard prototype measurement. Owners should have a factory measurement that they can compare to other measurements taken by members of the community.

Sure.

 

[imackler]

Read enough reviews from the same reviewer and you'll probably know from thier review whether you'll like a headphone or not. Unless they like every headphone!

 

[Beagle]

Of course not : some so-called TOTL headphones are far too expensive regarding their quality. That's the problem concerning the MDR-Z1R, and that's why there's 700+ pages in this thread to determine if they really deserve the $2k investment.

The Fostex TH900 originally started at a similar price. It's now about half that. Nobody would pay the original asking price now and nobody would say the TH900 is worth $2200 or ever was. But it sometimes appears that if you want to be an early adopter, you have to pay full price. There will be an initial demand out of curiosity, and those wanting to be first on the block. Then again, if you audition and like that certain sound and it costs a certain amount, you'll go for it. If you're patient you can usually get it for less later, especially if it had high market place expectations but it stiffed. With the Z1R it seems people love it or dislike it....regardless of what they paid.

 

[taktik]

The Fostex TH900 originally started at a similar price. It's now about half that. Nobody would pay the original asking price now and nobody would say the TH900 is worth $2200 or ever was. But it sometimes appears that if you want to be an early adopter, you have to pay full price. There will be an initial demand out of curiosity, and those wanting to be first on the block. Then again, if you audition and like that certain sound and it costs a certain amount, you'll go for it. If you're patient you can usually get it for less later, especially if it had high market place expectations but it stiffed. With the Z1R it seems people love it or dislike it....regardless of what they paid.

You're right, but there's a big difference between these two headphones. When the TH900 has been launched 5 years ago, there was very few rivals in its class. Today, there's a big bunch of very good headphones around 2k$ and they have to be excellent to become a must-have. The Z1R are clearly not universal headphones and this thread looks like the one devoted to the NightHawk. It's seems to be difficult to recommend the Z1R without major warnings.

 

[nordkapp]

I'm not talking about Sony testing the headphone on different rigs, I'm talking about each copy being tested on Sony's measurement rig before it ships. Include a sheet that shows the response curve compared to the gold standard prototype measurement. Owners should have a factory measurement that they can compare to other measurements taken by members of the community.

This actually is good practice. Bryston does this with their products. +1