[Brooko]

You need to have an amp with enough voltage swing to drive them properly.  Whether that is SS or tube, neutral or coloured - that is up to you and your preferences.  But if they are underpowered, you aren't going to hear what they are capable of.  ot using an amp means they are underpowered ......
 
But you have the Asgard2 - and that should have more than sufficient power.
 
For now - why don't you try what I suggested earlier.  Use the T1 and only the T1 for a week.  Then try your other headphones.  If you notice a bigger difference - then you're hearing what I hear.  If not, sell them, keep your HD600s, and go spend the money on music.  IMO - its the greatest upgrade you an make anyway (new music discovery) 

 

[Franatic]

   
 
So which first to get the wow factor from these cans? A higher quality DAC or a higher quality tube amp?
I guess my solid state amps amps aren't up to snuff, but how would a iDSD DAC factor in with them?
Would it skyrocket the sound quality or would I still need that better tube amp to get that?

You gotta drive them I would go with the amp first. I followed very good advice and paired my T1s with the Woo WA2 and have never regretted it. They are a marriage made in heaven. Plus the WA2 is a killer pre amp for my main system. You can always upgrade your WA2 with better tubes later too.

 

[Hansotek]

 
The T1 is a different beast altogether. The impedance hump actually reaches a massive 1400 ohms - so if you don't have enough voltage on tap, the first thing you are going to notice is no real body to the bass.  And this gels exactly with what you've described so far - about the T1 being too bright, and not as big a difference with your other cans.  IMO the T1 shines with amps able to output higher voltages, and OTL tube amps particularly.

You don't have to spend megabucks for the T1 to shine.  I think I already mentioned the Audio-gd NFB-15, or for tubes, something like a LD MKIV does very nicely.  But if they are underpowered, you won't know what they are really capable of.  You'll get the volume - but not the whole (correct) balance of frequency spectrum.

So which first to get the wow factor from these cans? A higher quality DAC or a higher quality tube amp?
I guess my solid state amps amps aren't up to snuff, but how would a iDSD DAC factor in with them?
Would it skyrocket the sound quality or would I still need that better tube amp to get that?

I've generally found wow factor to go like this (from greatest to least, assuming nothing in the chain is complete trash, of course):
Headphone > amp > source file = DAC = tubes > power isolation > USB cable > DAP > RCA cables

Obviously, it's possible to surpass any level with especially excellent quality in any one component, but as a general guide, that's about how it goes.

 

[Thenewguy007]

If not, sell them, keep your HD600s, and go spend the money on music.  IMO - its the greatest upgrade you an make anyway (new music discovery) 

 
lol how you think I got these T1's. I sold my HD600 to fund them.
 
Kind wish I didn't until after I purchased the T1, so I could at least do A/B comparisons between the two.

 

[borrego]

So which first to get the wow factor from these cans? A higher quality DAC or a higher quality tube amp?
I guess my solid state amps amps aren't up to snuff, but how would a iDSD DAC factor in with them?
Would it skyrocket the sound quality or would I still need that better tube amp to get that?

The biggest Wow factor of the T1 is the pin point positioning and layering of music instrument/voice reproduction. In my opinion none of the other headphones in production is better than the T1 in this aspect.

To maximize this wow factor, I would recommend a discrete SS amp with low negative feedback circuit. A tube amp is good for providing the required voltage swing and resulting sound stage, but tends to mask the positioning sound cues with tube harmonics.

The audio-gd C2 11th anniversary edition, or the NFB-3AMP are very good low cost SS amps with non-feedback circuits.

 

[Thenewguy007]

The biggest Wow factor of the T1 is the pin point positioning and layering of music instrument/voice reproduction. In my opinion none of the other headphones in production is better than the T1 in this aspect.

To maximize this wow factor, I would recommend a discrete SS amp with low negative feedback circuit. A tube amp is good for providing the required voltage swing and resulting sound stage, but tends to mask the positioning sound cues with tube harmonics.

The audio-gd C2 11th anniversary edition, or the NFB-3AMP are very good low cost SS amps with non-feedback circuits.

 
Does this amp I'm using, not have non-feedback circuits?
http://www.stereophile.com/content/headroom-desktop-da-headphone-amplifier-specifications
(I have just the amplifier, not the DAC & separate PSU)
 
It's kind of old, but has solid reviews everywhere I read. Unless it has been outclassed ny newer tech.

 

[technobear]

For actually driving the T1's 600Ohms, I'm surprised how easy it is. I can use it without an amp

Unfortunately here you're making a common mistake between loudness and actually being driven properly.  Note following graphs (from Innerfidelity - thaks Tyll !)



Here is the HD600 impedance graph.  Note that although they are rated at 300 ohm, in order to properly drive them, you need to have enough voltage to allow for this peak.  If they are underpowered, you'll notice weak bass response mainly centered between about 50-200 ohms.




The T1 is a different beast altogether. The impedance hump actually reaches a massive 1400 ohms - so if you don't have enough voltage on tap, the first thing you are going to notice is no real body to the bass.  And this gels exactly with what you've described so far - about the T1 being too bright, and not as big a difference with your other cans.  IMO the T1 shines with amps able to output higher voltages, and OTL tube amps particularly.

You don't have to spend megabucks for the T1 to shine.  I think I already mentioned the Audio-gd NFB-15, or for tubes, something like a LD MKIV does very nicely.  But if they are underpowered, you won't know what they are really capable of.  You'll get the volume - but not the whole (correct) balance of frequency spectrum.

No No No.

Wrong wrong wrong.

We have been through this already on this thread. Clearly some people didn't learn anything :rolleyes:

The output voltage of an amplifier follows the input signal.

The output voltage of an amplifier does NOT vary in accordance with the load impedance ([COLOR=FF00AA]unless the load is trying to draw more current than the amplifier can provide in which case the voltage will sag[/COLOR]).

It is the CURRENT that varies with the load impedance. In that part of the frequency spectrum where the headphone has an impedance peak, it will be drawing LESS current. Because the headphone is more efficient in this range, the frequency response does not dip.

It is therefore incorrect to assert that a headphone amplifier needs to have a higher maximum voltage to cope with the impedance peak. This is not true at all.

The headphone amplifier needs only sufficient voltage to drive a 600 ohm headphone to its maximum sound level. In the case of the T1 that's 126 dB and requires about 256 mW which needs a little over 12 Volts into 600 ohms to achieve. Of course 126 dB is crazy loud and in practice you can get away with a lot less than that. I've never needed more than 2 Volts available to get my T1 to uncomfortable listening levels without distortion.

 

[Brooko]

Explain this then - https://lsirui.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/k701-vs-hd650-electrical-measurement/

 

[Brooko]

And isn't the bit you outlined in pink exactly why a higher voltage amp is likely to have no problem delivering enough current to a high impedance headphone?

 

[technobear]

And isn't the bit you outlined in pink exactly why a higher voltage amp is likely to have no problem delivering enough current to a high impedance headphone?

No.

The bit I highlighted in pink is about current, not voltage.

If you try to make the amp deliver more current than the PSU can provide, usually by trying to play too loud into a load with an impedance DIP, then the voltage will sag and you get a sort of soft clipping and a soft bass is the usual result.

If you try to make the amp deliver more voltage than the PSU can provide, usually by applying too much gain, then the output voltage will be clipped at the point where it can go no higher. This is hard clipping and sounds nasty (and if you persist it will set your tweeters on fire).

 

[technobear]

Explain this then - https://lsirui.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/k701-vs-hd650-electrical-measurement/

That article is pointing out that one headphone is less efficient than another.

Efficiency and impedance are not the same. In fact they are not related at all. It is perfectly possible to have an inefficient low impedance headphone (like the K701) and a highly efficient high impedance headphone (like the T1).

The HD600 is considerably less efficient than the T1 so requires more power to achieve the same sound level.

Impedance only enters the ring when you want to determine (using Ohm's law) how much voltage and current will be required to achieve the desired power.

I think it worth presenting this again:



The kind of levels some of you guys seem to think you need are in fact highly damaging to your hearing.

 

[Brooko]

I actually listen reasonably quietly compared to most on this forum - average (recorded with an SPL meter) for me is usually around 60-70 dB, and I like to keep peaks generally well under 85dB.  the discussion was more about what power is required to properly drive a T1.
 
I was always led to believe a T1 required more voltage - despite its high efficiency.  If you perform a search, it's common to see voltage being referred to.  Even Joker's website quotes:
 
(http://theheadphonelist.com/ciem_review/beyerdynamic-tesla-t1/)

 Driving the Tesla T1 was the biggest challenge, as the T1 is voltage hungry and needs an amp capable of delivering to sound dynamic.

 
And another one:
(http://www.headphone.com/blogs/news/13776753-worlds-best-headphone-review-beyerdynamic-tesla-t1)
 

This is not a headphone, due to the higher voltage required, that will achieve solid listening levels with your iPod or other digital audio player --- an amp is pretty much required if you're going to use it portably.  However, because it is very efficient and not a particularly hard load to drive, it will sound pretty good on just about anything that has enough voltage to drive it.

 

[technobear]

I actually listen reasonably quietly compared to most on this forum - average (recorded with an SPL meter) for me is usually around 60-70 dB, and I like to keep peaks generally well under 85dB.  the discussion was more about what power is required to properly drive a T1.

I was always led to believe a T1 required more voltage - despite its high efficiency.  If you perform a search, it's common to see voltage being referred to.  Even Joker's website quotes:

(http://theheadphonelist.com/ciem_review/beyerdynamic-tesla-t1/)

 [COLOR=333333]Driving the Tesla T1 was the biggest challenge, as the T1 is voltage hungry and needs an amp capable of delivering to sound dynamic.[/COLOR]

And another one:
(http://www.headphone.com/blogs/news/13776753-worlds-best-headphone-review-beyerdynamic-tesla-t1)

[COLOR=666666]This is not a headphone, due to the higher voltage required, that will achieve solid listening levels with your iPod or other digital audio player --- an amp is pretty much required if you're going to use it portably.  However, because it is very efficient and not a particularly hard load to drive, it will sound pretty good on just about anything that has enough voltage to drive it.[/COLOR]

The T1 is not voltage hungry because it is efficient.

The HD600 is about 92 dB / mW. It will require 10 mW to get to 102 dB. Impedance is 300 ohms so voltage required is SQRT(3) or 1.73 V.

The T1 is 102 dB / mW. It will require 1 mW to get to 102 dB. Impedance is 600 ohms so voltage required is SQRT(0.6) or 0.77 V.

So you see the T1 actually requires LESS voltage than the HD600. Quite a lot less.

 

[Brooko]

OK - I have both the HD600 and T1 with me right now.
 
Same amp (micro iDSD).
 
Voltage and current input into both is same.  T1 is quieter (ie - needs more volume).  HD600 is louder.  So is this related to current again?
 
All this tells me (physical comparison with the same source and volume) is that the HD600 is easier to drive - not harder.

 

[pearljam50000]

Can the O2 drive them OK?