[Braver]

I thikn Jude's pretty much got the right idea.

I really don't see what the fuss is about. there's not too many people in the world outside The Netherlands that speak Dutch. if Dutch people want to do anything internationaly (which includes participating in international forums), they better learn a language a lot of people speak too. yeah culture and stuff, but you can practise culture somewhere else. the Dutch are somewhat known for their expertise when it comes to water and other wetnesses, don't think they'd be doing their thing interantionally if they were speaking Dutch wherever they went.
same thing in Denmark I guess. we used to go there on holidays a lot. they think it's cool if you know a few Danish words, but otherwise, they speak English to tourists.

IMO, English is the international language. cool if you have a different one yourself, but among others that don't know your language either speak their language or speak English.

I'm always amazed that there are people out there that don't know English.

 

[ai0tron]

Example: The official language of NATO is English.

Just speak ENGLISH. Like Onix said it's POLITE to speak english on these forums. I am always bothered by foreigners who will speak their home language in a classroom or even sometimes just in public places. It bothers me that some people live in America and don't even learn to speak english. If I went to a foreign country my FIRST goal would be to learn the local language. I would not walk around EXPECTING others to know my langauge so that I could maintain my cultural identity. That is just stupid, if you want to maintain your cultural identity, coming to America, or posting on American forums is not the way to do it. YES, America IS ENRICHED by the many different cultures that make it up, but, those cultures are no longer sovereign, they are ADOPTED, and are in fact more American than their origin.

In other words, you cannot be FOREIGN on the forums. You can be ENGLISH with FOREIGN ideas. IF you ARE foreign on these forums, you are invisible.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

The official dictum has come down. Whether it is arrogant or not is moot.

A suggestion to those of you who speak both Chinese and English, to whatever degrees: put that fact in your .sig. Give a quick definition of how to pm you or e you if they need help with translation. That way maybe we can make our Chinese neighbours feel welcome on a volunteer basis.

I don't know Chinese, so I can't help.

 

[Mumrik]

Double post... feel free to delete this thing of the devil

 

[Mumrik]

Quote:

Originally posted by lini Why not make both sides happy? I'd prefer English in the already established forums, too, but I guess it wouldn't harm to include the "Babylon Lounge - audio-related discussion in your language" (just made it up). Thus non-english-speaking folks would have a chance, too. And I think some of us could and would visit this forum and translate the interesting posts for further discussion on the main forums or the other way round. Greetings from Munich! Manfred / lini

So, a new sub-forum, with a new team of moderators (must be capable in all the languages that would be used in such a forum), and a new group of non English speaking people...
In other words, an entirely new forum which in fact would have a very weak link to this one (there would probably be as little communication between the two as there is between head-Fi and the mentioned Chinese forum). I Believe that would be beyond the scope of Jude's Head-Fi.

If these people wish to communicate in Chinese/Hebrew/French, I'm sure there are forums out there that cater to their needs. If they wish to communicate in English (and thus reach a large variety of people spread out over most of the earth), Head-Fi and HeadWize are great places to seek out.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, Joe Lau is the perfect example, he is participating in English the best he can and we are all learning from the experience.

There truly is no need to blow this "problem" out of proportion (which I believe is what is happening here). There is room for everybody on the internet, it just doesn't have to be the same room

As a Dane I agree with Braver's last post..



Quote:

Originally posted by gaineso mumrik speaks of having some command of 3-5 languages, and English is not his first. He probably writes better English than I do, and I've got 60 years experience with English as spoken in the Southern United States. Not the Queen's English.

I'm flattered, but we both know that you're wrong

To me, the fact that dealing with the internet and computers in general (especially games, since they aren't translated to Danish) has forced me to learn English from the start (I've been playing games since age three) is a great thing 'cause I sure as hell know that you guys aren't going to learn Danish just to talk to me

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry When my kinsfolk - the Welsh - were struggling under the yoke of the English, the kids were all forced to learn English (as a foreign language) at school. These days, the kids mostly speak English as a first language, and getting them to learn Welsh again after all this time is proving to be almost impossible. I will not support a global community that does not at least make the effort to accomodate another's mother tongue.

You use the word "force" -- fundamentally different from the situation at hand. This isn't a political problem. It's a technical problem -- an HTML problem, a resource problem, among other things. I, for one, seriously hope you reconsider (as I hope that your later posts indicate, that you already have).

 

[Joe Bloggs]

OK, I'm in a better mood today to make some arguments

First I'd like to note again that I can read Chinese with, erm, 90% efficiency

(Although I was born and raised in Hong Kong, I went to Australia for 3 years from primary 4 to 6, and somehow English grew on me more than Chinese ever did

Also those ppl from China are typing in Simplified Chinese while I'm used to reading Traditional Chinese.) And I can type in Chinese too, although in Traditional--I hope they can read

If the number of Chinese users grows and Head-Fi finds a need for another Chinese-reading mod, I'm happy to step in

Quote:

Yeah, that's what it means. And I don't think it's any more unfair than any other non-English forum and the extent to which I'd feel excluded -- again, I just don't go.

It's easy to say that, until people speaking another language actually start showing up in a forum

The situation with the Chinese is different from people from, say, Europe or Hong Kong. Chinese is such a different language from English (as opposed to, say, German, French or the other Romance languages--at least you share *most* of the character set!) that it makes it very hard for Chinese to understand English, and vice versa, unless you have had training from childhood. And it is training in childhood that most mainland Chinese do not have. In theory their schools teach English--but for ordinary schools, the children only finish going through the alphabet by grade 6!

*You* might think English is the standard language of the Internet but I bet most Chinese Internet users seldom venture out of Chinese sites! The Asian people you have seen here at Head-Fi so far are exceptional people: many of them no longer live in their home country, and got their English proficiency through living in an English-speaking country; in their case they can't even write their national language as well as English. Some of them (like me) live in an Asian city that puts an extraordinary emphasis on English. (Hong Kong was a British colony, after all) Even then I think you can see for yourself here that even *that* does not guarantee English mastery.

These are the exceptional cases. For the majority of Chinese Internet users, they might know English, but at the level of finally knowing the alphabet at Grade 6 and... whatever goes from there on, ok?

They may try to post in English, but it might turn out in the end that only someone who speaks their language can understand what they are saying. You might take Joe Lau's English, divide the grammar level by 10, and see what you get

(Sorry Joe Lau

)

So I think it's fair if they post their questions and comments in English 'as well as they could' but then include a Chinese version anyway. I agree that Chinese-only threads should be banned, but I don't understand this thread was locked:

http://head-fi.com/forums/showthread...0&pagenumber=3

The last warning to continue in English was from DanG, and since then no posts were made in Chinese, except for *3 words* I wrote in a post that was mostly English.

About the Babylon thing: of course it is unfeasible for *all* languages to be used there, but if we have enough moderators available for one language for the amount of traffic we are likely to see (e.g. 2 mods for Chinese) and there is demand for it, as evident in Chinese posts here, I don't see what's wrong with opening the Babylon Lounge and starting off with *one* language--Chinese. Then if other languages are demanded and mods are available, we can add them into the list of permitted languages for threads in Babylon.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bloggs About the Babylon thing: of course it is unfeasible for *all* languages to be used there, but if we have enough moderators available for one language for the amount of traffic we are likely to see (e.g. 2 mods for Chinese) and there is demand for it, as evident in Chinese posts here, I don't see what's wrong with opening the Babylon Lounge and starting off with *one* language--Chinese. Then if other languages are demanded and mods are available, we can add them into the list of permitted languages for threads in Babylon.

Again, Joe, this is likely not going to happen here anytime soon -- if ever -- for all the reasons I stated before. I don't see this step as necessary at this time, nor do I see it as practical. I feel pretty confident that requests to Audio Asylum or Audiogon to create foreign language forums might very well be met with similar answers

I've seen reference to a Chinese language forum in the posts and profiles of at least a couple of the Chinese-language posters. I would not expect that forum to accomodate me by creating an English language forum there. Again, it's not really that practical.

If you ask me, we're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The demand for it here is low. And if it was high enough to seriously consider the addition of sub-forums for non-English-speaking/typing Chinese enthusiasts, I'd suggest that someone create a Chinese language website/forum for headphone hi-fi enthusiasts instead.

 

[pigmode]

What about sign language? You could use cool graphics of little hands contorted into those oh so familiar shapes. Oh, excuse me. That would still be english, wouldn't it?

 

[TerriblySorry]

I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say.

I wish you all well, and I hope that one day the ruling on this will be re-considered.

Au revoir.

 

[Braver]

'ciao' then I guess..

"enforce", "ruling"...whoa

 

[pigmode]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say. I wish you all well, and I hope that one day the ruling on this will be re-considered. Au revoir.

I think it's great that you are willing to make sacrifices based on your political beliefs. La Ti Sawat.

 

[setmenu]

Hi Folks
I am very impressed with Head-Fi and it's friendly bunch of like
minded members,and share many of the views expressed here.
I also salute the general desire of people to welcome all comers
wherever they are from,heartwarming stuff.
It has certainly made me appreciate the fact english is my first
language!
But I have to agree with Jude's sentiments on this one,afterall
this is not his full time job but a hobby[and I am so gratefull to
jude for his hobby

] and a strong grip on the content is required.
It may seem harsh but really it is just being practical,in my view.

There are plenty of willing and enthusiastic people here so I do
believe a solution of some kind will be eventually found.
Afterall it is painfull to see another Headpnone enthusiast in
the wilderness,

Setmenu

 

[Joe Bloggs]

That said, it hasn't exactly driven every Chinese away from Head-Fi. But we do need a friendlier way of telling them that English is the only language on this board, complete with all the good reasons here for why this is so, instead of a 'Use English or Die' plaque

!

I suppose Jude will package these points together into an explanation in the new clause in the Posting Rules section. Then when someone does not post in English we can direct him / her to that part of the Posting Rules. This way (s)he can understand why (s)he should post in English, and we don't need to type out a lengthy explanation every time.

I've thought about it again and I suppose it's true that those who can't understand English should either pm those people here that speak both the language they speak and English, or stay in JDDSY / whatever fora are appropriate to them. Upon further reflection I find it was the way threads were locked without explanation, letting people free to make the worst interpretations, that troubled me the most.

I hope that I will not see threads in JDDSY in the next few days with titles like 'Head-Fiers are a bunch of racist bastards!

'

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say. I wish you all well, and I hope that one day the ruling on this will be re-considered. Au revoir.

Buh Bye.

Haven't you noticed many of our new found friends are typing away in English now?