[Audio-Me]

Many people whos first language is not english speak "broken english". That's because they translate their language directly into english definitions. No sentance structure corrections, grammar conjugations or multimeaning phrases. FYI, english is the most farfetched language if you compare it to every every language in the world. They are mostly of latin or ancient asian decendant and have some kind of correlation. That said, I find that "broken enlgish" is easier to understand than what most people say. As they're straight to the point, don't ramble, don't use unnecessary words/phrases, don't use jargon, and don't say one thing, but mean another.

Unless the head-fi community was divided into english only speaking fellows and a dominant foreign language (say, chinese?) 50/50, I see no reason for another forum in a language other than english. Like jude says, it would be a pain in the ass to moderate.

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me Like jude says, it would be a pain in the ass to moderate.

I can't imagine what a pain it would be for the moderators. Even worse, people would act like little gangs and keep to themselves. Everything would be splintered and it would take away from the knowledge we could share.

 

[morphsci]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say. I wish you all well, and I hope that one day the ruling on this will be re-considered. Au revoir.

Have fun on the Chinese language only headphone boards.

shasliva

 

[pigmode]

Seems like this site is based in an english speaking region with a membership that is largely english speaking. To deem it so, in an official sense, is in no way, shape or form prejudice or politically aggressive. If TerriblySorry wants to opt for political martyrdom, that's fine. I'm cool with that. Just stop trying to act as if opening the boards to mutiple languages is some kind of rational option--it isn't.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say.

What good is letting people "have their say" if no one else on the board can understand what they're saying???

I think there's a good deal of overreaction and misatribution of motives going on here. I'm the last person to exclude anyone, deny people their "voice," or force a certain culture onto others. However, that's NOT what is happening.

I'm going to let Jude's position stand as it is -- he's right that having multiple languages is currently not possible logistically. Instead, I'm going to argue that we should use English as the common language even if multiple languages *was* possible.

First of all, there is good reason to have a single "common" language on a board such as this -- the strength of the community is based on its ability to communicate, and the value of the content is based on the fact that everyone can read and understand that content. If people used many different languages here, we'd end up having the content split into many different language-specific pockets, some duplicating each other (a waste of bandwidth and storage space), some exclusive of each other (TRULY excluding others). So I think having a single "common" language makes sense.

Second, Head-Fi has, to this point, been a de facto English board ("de facto" means that it's that way without being legally or officially established as such). Most people here either speak English as their primary language (the vast majority of members) or speak it as a second language (and those people communicate very well in it). There is no other language that could replace English that would let the majority of people on Head-Fi communicate. So if there is to be "one" language here, it should be English.

Finally, given how few people were speaking only Chinese (using the recent example), what's the point of them using Head-Fi to converse, knowing that the vast majority of Head-Fi'ers can't understand them? Email, IRC, a newsgroup, or another forum dedicated to their native tongue would all be much better methods for them to communicate. Those who don't speak English at all, but really want to talk headphones, can just as easily start another board using their native tongue.

It's pretty clear that Head-Fi welcomes people from every race, religion, culture, gender, and geographic area -- no one is being "excluded." Even when members have trouble with English, the membership is very patient and really tries to help. It's unfortunate that not everyone in the world can speak English. However, it comes down to this: two things have made Head-Fi the community it is: a common interest in headphones and audio, and a common language that allows people to talk about that interest.

 

[gaineso]

macDEF,

I think you have just about wrapped this one up. Beautifully thought out and stated.

I wish I could say I'm terribly sorry to see TerriblySorry leave, but I'm not. Somehow, I think he was trying to grind an axe that should have been gound elsewhere.

 

[Redwoood]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say. I wish you all well, and I hope that one day the ruling on this will be re-considered. Au revoir.

TerriblySorry, I'm really sad to read this - I hope you'll reconsider.
People who do not understand any English would probably not find their way here anyway. And those who do... well this is
a great place to practice and improve their English.
Sure it's not their fault they don't speak English - well it's not mine that I don't speak any Chinese dialect, or Spanish or Finnish or...
You shouldn't see this as 'enforcing' , it's more an agreeing on some standard.
You as a programmer certainly know how important standards are. Without standards there is just chaos.

Or what about my friend..uhm..Bob. He has no access to a computer but is a headphone fanatic and he would love to be
part of this community. It's not his fault he doesn't own a computer. One solution is that Bob sends his postings as letters to jude directly, who will type them into the system and print out any follow-ups... great idea, hmm?

Is it wrong to 'enforce' people to use a computer to be part of Head-Fi, or to use a web browser ? ( Let's turn this into a mailing
list so I can post from pine!

) It's just a standard we all agree on and the use of English as the only language is just another part of this. It helps to make using this place possible.
So sorry, Bob, you need a computer to be part of this, and sorry
xxx from yyy, you need to read/write English (which does not have to be good BTW) to participate in this site.

I hope you're still sticking around to read this, TerriblySorry...

Bye

Redwoood

 

[Tim D]

My personal opinion is that people are over-reacting over an over-reaction, which all originated from only a few postings over the last few days which in themselves are very innocuous postings.

I felt there was never a need to make the implicit so explicit in such a legalistic way...a simple request is all that was needed. Funny thing is, they all complied and even apologized (which in itself was not needed since it was no huge crime whatsoever), and yet here we are acting silly calling people arrogant or what not on both sides. There is also no need to set up new language legislature and appoint translaters and extra forums. And the funniest part is the people who posted in a different language in the first place are probably very confused about why their original postings caused such hoopla and it really isn't even their fault. I think people made it out to be such an issue with the belief that it would be "divisive" to our community that it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, when IMO, it should have passed with absolutely no incident.

The fact that all the time, effort, and contemplation in this thread outweigh what instigated it ten-fold, kind of shows a disproportionate reaction to something I would hardly consider a powder-keg of an issue. I wish everyone could just let it pass, but I guess its too late...the fact that we, as a whole, made such a big deal out of something so small is something I consider quite strange. Personally I think there are some folks that are a bit too stalwart against foreign postings, and likewise some folks that are likewise taking too much offense from their reaction. There were no offensive actions or problems commited initially, in my eyes all the problems stems from reactions.

I think the moderate opinion of most is that most really didn't care enough to think this issue was something worth fighting over.

I hope all this hoopla doesn't require an addendum to some TOS, which would be something like, "The use of English which has always been implicit and de facto, will now be an explicit requirement, otherwise it will cause a rash of reactionary problems as found in thread ...."

The only reason there is a "problem" is because people are making it a problem. I'm not on the camp defending the English language as being mandatory, nor am I in the camp defending the right of international language use...I think I'm in the moderate and majority camp of "you guys who are fighting one way or another are kinda acting very silly".

My views:

1. Reading a *few* posts which I do not understand does not piss me off or cause an inflammatory reaction from me. If I was pissed off at everything I did not understand, I would be a pissed off person. However see view 2.

2. The fact that these are English-based boards is implicit. I do not feel the need to facilitate every known spoken language such as no site I know really does this, especially not a small hobbyist site.

3. There is no need to make the implicit so very explicit. This is IMO an over-reaction and silly...just like there is no need to talk extremely loud into a foreign persons ear in hopes that louder voicing will somehow convey the message more easily.

 

[TerriblySorry]

I'm confused that some posters here think I've got an axe to grind or that I have a political agenda. I don't.

Be that as it may, some of you have made statements which I find to be in some way illogical.

Take this one from Redwood: "People who do not understand any English would probably not find their way here anyway." Redwood, you'd be surprised how many foreign language sites I get to see when surfing for headphones-related info. I reckon that if I can find my way to Chinese sites (and I do from time to time), the Chinese can find their way here (and they've left calling cards to proove it).

MacDEF seems to think that if somebody started posting in, say, Italian or French, no-one else here would understand a word being said: "What good is letting people "have their say" if no one else on the board can understand what they're saying???"

Morphsci has degenerated, rather pointlessly, into sarcasm: "Have fun on the Chinese language only headphone boards." I don't think there are any - I've certainly never found any, but there are loads of Chinese sites about Stax. (I just look at the pictures - well, it's a start).

Joe Bloggs seems to think that all non-english posters can actually understand English: "Then when someone does not post in English we can direct him / her to that part of the Posting Rules. This way (s)he can understand why (s)he should post in English, and we don't need to type out a lengthy explanation every time."

 

[KR...]

So long TerriblySorry!

Anyway,
I know more than just english, but you don't see me posting in any of the other languages that I know. English is my 1st language, but it's not the only one I know how to write in and read.

Since this is a english board, that's what I post in, there are penlty of other boards that are other languages only as well. Stating that this is an english only board is NOT a facist thing, it's just the type of board that this is, which is an english board. Nothing more, nothing less.

Even if someone's 1st language isn't english, they are still more than welcome here as long as they post in english, it's doesn't have to be perfect, just as long as we can understand most of it, or at least some of it, we can figure it out.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say. I wish you all well, and I hope that one day the ruling on this will be re-considered. Au revoir.

Tantamount to excluding? Again, no more than a non-English language forum excludes English-only speakers.

Au revoir. Sorry to see you go.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim D My personal opinion is that people are over-reacting over an over-reaction, which all originated from only a few postings over the last few days which in themselves are very innocuous postings.

Read my first post in this thread, Tim. You may disagree, but I don't think it's an overreaction.

I'm not big into creating new rules, trying to do so only when necessary. In this case, I think it is. Sure, only a few threads contained posts in question, one of them almost entirely so -- so far. And you say the postings are innocuous, and though I believe you, how the heck am I supposed to know? I can't read or understand them, and, yes, they exclude the vast majority of this community. That to me is the issue.

You don't think there should be any mention of this in the rules? To a degree, I can understand why you're not crazy about the idea -- heck, I'm not either. But we had a rule banning commercial ads before it was really much of a problem too.

Quote:

There is no need to make the implicit so very explicit. This is IMO an over-reaction and silly...just like there is no need to talk extremely loud into a foreign persons ear in hopes that louder voicing will somehow convey the message more easily.

That analogy is nonsense. Absolute nonsense. And to suggest that this is what I'm doing is nonsense -- yeah, I guess we disagree on this too.

One of the moderators moderated based on what you say is implied. He was called arrogant for doing so. In other discussions with the moderators, the moderators have mentioned that it's difficult to moderate without guidelines. There would be no guidelines on this issue if it never popped up. And there will be future issues that will require other rules, but I'll always try to keep from creating them until I feel they're needed. But, again, we disagree on this -- you think they're not needed, I think they now are.

 

[Mumrik]

Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry I'll be off then. The decision to enforce English here (and it will be enforced, right Jude?) is tantamount to excluding those members of the global community who, probably through no fault of their own, do not speak English. I will not support any community that actively seeks to prevent some members of that community from having their say. I wish you all well, and I hope that one day the ruling on this will be re-considered. Au revoir.

I truly do not see the logic here... I am terribly sorry...
How are non English speaking Chinese people supposed to communicate and participate in a community concisting of non Chinese speaking English speaking people? How can they "have their say"?

It's easy to complain about the problem when you don't have to come up with a functional solution... and I haven't seen one here yet.

Through the last couple of years I have been an active member of six different English language forums. Most of which have far greater financial resources and many more moderators, the largest of them currently has 27,044 members (1,141,214 posts in total), and all of these forums enforce an English Only rule. None of them have found a solution to this problem and many of them have had to deal with legal problems caused by the content of postings on the forums...


Quote:

Originally posted by TerriblySorry Morphsci has degenerated, rather pointlessly, into sarcasm: "Have fun on the Chinese language only headphone boards." I don't think there are any - I've certainly never found any, but there are loads of Chinese sites about Stax. (I just look at the pictures - well, it's a start).

There is a Chinese language headphone forum... that's where the new Chinese members all came from and that's why we don't see a need for Chinese language postings here... They are all very welcome here, if they are willing (and able) to participate in the same language as the rest of us.



Quote:

Originally posted by gloco I can't imagine what a pain it would be for the moderators. Even worse, people would act like little gangs and keep to themselves. Everything would be splintered and it would take away from the knowledge we could share.

I agree. It would be two very seperated forums and therefor there would be no reason for such a forum to be part of Head-Fi.



TerriblySorry: I absolutely disagree with your stance on this, but I am saddened to see that a problem that to me (and many others) seems so small, is causing someone who's been a member here since Jul 2001 to leave...

 

[Tim D]

Well honestly I don't think its a big deal to have something mentioned in the TOS, I just never considered it a real solution to a problem big enough to cause any division.

To me that solution is like having more and more text recommending new users to utilize the search function. Meaning even if it is there you will STILL have occasional and obvious "I didn't use the search engine" postings. However you are right, I suppose if there is the chance that it will prevent even ONE non-english poster to post in foreign languages because they carefully read the english TOS, than there is no reason not to have it.

I am just of the opinion, that the true and best solution to the problem is to recognize that there really wasn't such a problem to begin with...surely not of this degree. At most it was an annoyance. True we can always play what-if's...what-if they are encoded terrorist attack messages for example. There is always a fine-line between precautionary, and reactionary.

The issue that you cannot moderate what you cannot understand is of course paramount, however there is also a benefit of the doubt that not all foreign postings is inherently divisive or subversive in nature. All the postings and debate ABOUT foreign postings have become more divisive and subversive than the original offense ever was or would ever be, I don't believe I need to qualify that statement.

Again I point out that in the entire scheme of things, the request to communicate in English was made, and for the most part there was total compliance. So why is there a problem? Because I still believe the problem is a reactionary one formed on both sides of the issue. I don't think you are over-reacting Jude...you are forced to deal with an issue where overreaction has already occured IMO and that is of course the issue here.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim D Well honestly I don't think its a big deal to have something mentioned in the TOS, I just never considered it a real solution to a problem big enough to cause any division.

I honestly didn't expect everyone to agree with me on this or any other issue.

Throw out a topic -- any topic. State a position on that topic. People will agree with you. People will disagree with you.I have received at least two e-mails from individuals who didn't think we should ban commercial posts (not surprisingly from commercial interests).

On this issue of language, one member decided to leave and never come back. There may be others who aren't publically stating they're leaving who are hot on his heels. I expected this could happen, as it's almost impossible to please everyone.

I've received private e-mails from people who've stated they're leaving for a number of things.

By the way, I've just re-read the entire thread, and couldn't find a point in any post where it was even hinted that all foreign postings are inherently divisive or subversive in nature. I just don't want to have to ask every time to find out, nor do I want to exclude the vast majority of the community who can't understand such threads.

 

[Audio-Me]

I see people leaving for small reasons to be rather weak. So what if english is the only language used here? They still understand it otherwise they wouldn't be here. If not, there are translating services out there, some even translate entire websites for you dynamically on the fly.
Leaving because of high school yapping? That's just as much regressing as the people who are participating in it, pathetic. Did they even consider the facts that some viewers are actually in high school and do talk that way?

But... If they want to be ignorant, so be it. Their loss.

Too many audiophile-types? What does that mean? Is that supposed to be a negative stereotype? Did they say?