[Benny-x]

Maybe I missed where 'a lot of this back and forth" was posted. Would you mind sharing where you've read this, please?

No, I didn't articulate what I was trying to get across very well in that post and what I followed up with is, I believe, more reflective of what I meant to say.

This is the topic I was poking at:

I've read on a few forums now that some people prefer the standard WA33 over the EE. They say the EE is a little too lush sounding and rolls off some parts (or something like that). That the standard WA33 is a better "complete" package vs. the EE being a better subjective package if your particular tastes go that way. I have no idea, but it's an interesting concept to subscribe to when the EE is $7K more and you still have to sort yourself out with aftermarket tubes...

 

[matthewhypolite]

Amazing setup you have. A couple questions. Are the TCs more of a grey color overall or is that just the ceramic coating highly reflecting your camera flash? Can you post a pic or two without flash? I thought they were a ceramic black or very dark grey. Also, are you running that fantasy system off a Yggdrasil? Curious as that’s all I see in the pics and in your reviews.

Sure i can take a non-flash photo of it. But side by side the TC looks considerably lighter color than the Abyss. I really like the look and feel tbh. OG coating looks and feel very raw and aggressive. The new coating looks and feel very elegant and sophisticated.

And yes mate, i know the yggy is the weak link atm. Which is why i am current dac shopping. I decided to focus on amp stage first. Now that im comfortable there, time to focus on dac. Currently the items on the shortlist are:

Dave + M scaler
MSB Discrete + Power Base
MSB Premier Stock (ill go with this one, if i think id want to upgrade to femto clock, but if igo with pemier, when im finished with upgrades, i'm looking at around $35k final price for fully tricked out dac, vs $15k for the dave kit, or $20k for the discrete kit. so thinking through all of these things for the past few weeks, either way. i'll be doing my dac upgrade before year end.)

 

[kyle1010]

Sure i can take a non-flash photo of it. But side by side the TC looks considerably lighter color than the Abyss. I really like the look and feel tbh. OG coating looks and feel very raw and aggressive. The new coating looks and feel very elegant and sophisticated.

And yes mate, i know the yggy is the weak link atm. Which is why i am current dac shopping. I decided to focus on amp stage first. Now that im comfortable there, time to focus on dac. Currently the items on the shortlist are:

Dave + M scaler
MSB Discrete + Power Base
MSB Premier Stock (ill go with this one, if i think id want to upgrade to fetmo clock, but if igo with pemier, when im finished with upgrades, i'm looking at around $35k final price for fully tricked out dac, vs $15k for the dave kit, or $20k for the discrete kit. so thinking through all of these things for the past few weeks, either way. i'll be doing my dac upgrade before year end.)

Ahh ok. More pics are certainly welcome! It’s tough to get an idea how the TC really looks cuz the ones on the Abyss website look a little darker(which I like).

Have you considered dCS Rossini dac? I’ve actually heard that one on a standard WA33 with KR 2A3s and Takatsuki 274b rectifier with the original Abyss Phi and it was hands down the best thing I’ve ever heard through headphones. Destroyed the Sennheiser HE-1, which honestly makes sense..its dac and tubes can’t really compete here. I remember hearing the Blu/Dave combo that same day(CanJam SoCal) by itself and thinking it’s probably not a fair comparison cuz Rosinni was played through an amp, but Blu/Dave had the most micro detail I’d ever heard in headphones(my own LCD-4s for the demo), but it was kinda dry and technical. I’ve owned a solo Dave and sold it for that exact reason..even through tubes it was too dry for me. The Rossini/WA33/Phi was extremely close in detail but far more full and musical. Most likely was the tubes but yeah. I think it’s a matter of taste at this level of dacs. If you’re a technical sound/transparency fan, I’d go high-end Chord. Analog/musicality fan, dCS or MSB.

 

[matthewhypolite]

Ahh ok. More pics are certainly welcome! It’s tough to get an idea how the TC really looks cuz the ones on the Abyss website look a little darker(which I like).

Have you considered dCS Rossini dac? I’ve actually heard that one on a standard WA33 with KR 2A3s and Takatsuki 274b rectifier with the original Abyss Phi and it was hands down the best thing I’ve ever heard through headphones. Destroyed the Sennheiser HE-1, which honestly makes sense..its dac and tubes can’t really compete here. I remember hearing the Blu/Dave combo that same day(CanJam SoCal) by itself and thinking it’s probably not a fair comparison cuz Rosinni was played through an amp, but Blu/Dave had the most micro detail I’d ever heard in headphones(my own LCD-4s for the demo), but it was kinda dry and technical. I’ve owned a solo Dave and sold it for that exact reason..even through tubes it was too dry for me. The Rossini/WA33/Phi was extremely close in detail but far more full and musical. Most likely was the tubes but yeah. I think it’s a matter of taste at this level of dacs. If you’re a technical sound/transparency fan, I’d go high-end Chord. Analog/musicality fan, dCS or MSB.

I'll add the dcs to the shortlist, and dry is the opposite of what I want. I prefer analog, natural, but still want that resolution and mciro detail. It's the whole reason I went tubes, to add that musicality. And I can dial it in more or less base on the tubes I slot in. Currently I'm running a WE284b rectifier, becuase i thought the Takatsuki added too much bloom. The WE still sounds musical, and organic, but tightens up the bottom end. I'd like my dac to reflect that. And your not the first person I've spoken to who said the chord stuff is a bit dry and clinical sounding. P. S., I was going to grab a set of kr this year, but I'll forgoe that until next year. Already got some great tubes so dac next.

 

[kyle1010]

I'll add the dcs to the shortlist, and dry is the opposite of what I want. I prefer analog, natural, but still want that resolution and mciro detail. It's the whole reason I went tubes, to add that musicality. And I can dial it in more or less base on the tubes I slot in. Currently I'm running a WE284b rectifier, becuase i thought the Takatsuki added too much bloom. The WE still sounds musical, and organic, but tightens up the bottom end. I'd like my dac to reflect that. And your not the first person I've spoken to who said the chord stuff is a bit dry and clinical sounding. P. S., I was going to grab a set of kr this year, but I'll forgoe that until next year. Already got some great tubes so dac next.

I have the exact same tastes so I would take the dCS in a heartbeat. I use a WE422a in my WA33 from time to time and it too sounds very natural, but I like a little more bloom in the bottom end so I think I’ll look into getting that Takatsuki. Do you still have yours? I’ll probably go with the KR 2A3s soon as well. Anything else is extremely hard to audition, but at least I’ve heard those with the Abyss Phi and was blown away so I know what I’m getting into.

 

[matthewhypolite]

I have the exact same tastes so I would take the dCS in a heartbeat. I use a WE422a in my WA33 from time to time and it too sounds very natural, but I like a little more bloom in the bottom end so I think I’ll look into getting that Takatsuki. Do you still have yours? I’ll probably go with the KR 2A3s soon as well. Anything else is extremely hard to audition, but at least I’ve heard those with the Abyss Phi and was blown away so I know what I’m getting into.

Yes I still have the taks, snagged it for about 750 on ebay new. I used to slot it in now and then depending on the genre, but haven't in a while as I really like the sound of the WE. I'll test it out with the TC though.

The RCA Monoplates power tubes are magical. I don't expect the KRs to beat them. But having a diff flavor of tubes on hand would be nice.

P.s. Currently researching the dac

 

[Zhanming057]

Yes I still have the taks, snagged it for about 750 on ebay new. I used to slot it in now and then depending on the genre, but haven't in a while as I really like the sound of the WE. I'll test it out with the TC though.

The RCA Monoplates power tubes are magical. I don't expect the KRs to beat them. But having a diff flavor of tubes on hand would be nice.

P.s. Currently researching the dac

Before you pull the trigger on any of the MSB DAC's, I would recommend checking out the following:

- Nagra Classic/HD DAC. This is possibly the best Delta-Sigma DAC on the planet. It'll happily run on 12v and is incredibly "no-fuss" with a built-in upsampler and great USB treatment.
- Linn Klimax DSM3. This DAC is absolutely amazing and has an incredible feature set, including automatic room adjustments for 2-channel use. If price was no object and I didn't mind the lack of USB, this is the DAC I would go for.
- Vermeer Two. Great streaming features and an incredibly solid DAC.

MSB I am not very familiar with, but I have heard conflicting reports of the quality of their non-flagship DAC's. DCS I am fairly familiar with, and while the Rossini is a world-class DAC in its own right, I don't like how DCS nickels and dimes you for the upsampler and master clock while it would not be substantively costly to at least integrate one of the two into the DAC itself. It feels "greedy" to me - although if I could find a Vivaldi at the right price with the upsampler (which is of crucial importance to the Vivaldi's sound), I would go for it without hesitation.

 

[Zhanming057]

I've had a friend say the same thing - that the standard version sounds better... Sounds like it's definitely worth organising an audition before purchase.

I don't recall the EE being any less technically strong or rolled off than the standard version. Tubes will make the biggest difference either way, and there is little point of running either version on stock tubes.

Woo wants its amps to be platforms of tube-rolling. Bundling in expensive tubes that may not be to everyone's taste doesn't make sense given that objective.

That said, I do consider the Viva 845 - or 845 power amps - to have better overall synergy with the Abyss Phi than any 2a3 amp. The WA33e is to me an endgame pairing to the Utopia, and the Abyss works better with an even "tighter" signature which the 845 happily provides.

 

[matthewhypolite]

Before you pull the trigger on any of the MSB DAC's, I would recommend checking out the following:

- Nagra Classic/HD DAC. This is possibly the best Delta-Sigma DAC on the planet. It'll happily run on 12v and is incredibly "no-fuss" with a built-in upsampler and great USB treatment.
- Linn Klimax DSM3. This DAC is absolutely amazing and has an incredible feature set, including automatic room adjustments for 2-channel use. If price was no object and I didn't mind the lack of USB, this is the DAC I would go for.
- Vermeer Two. Great streaming features and an incredibly solid DAC.

MSB I am not very familiar with, but I have heard conflicting reports of the quality of their non-flagship DAC's. DCS I am fairly familiar with, and while the Rossini is a world-class DAC in its own right, I don't like how DCS nickels and dimes you for the upsampler and master clock while it would not be substantively costly to at least integrate one of the two into the DAC itself. It feels "greedy" to me - although if I could find a Vivaldi at the right price with the upsampler (which is of crucial importance to the Vivaldi's sound), I would go for it without hesitation.

Thanks mate, I'll have a look.

I see dcs also has the vivaldi, which is their flagship

 

[mulder01]

I don't recall the EE being any less technically strong or rolled off than the standard version. Tubes will make the biggest difference either way, and there is little point of running either version on stock tubes.

Woo wants its amps to be platforms of tube-rolling. Bundling in expensive tubes that may not be to everyone's taste doesn't make sense given that objective.

That said, I do consider the Viva 845 - or 845 power amps - to have better overall synergy with the Abyss Phi than any 2a3 amp. The WA33e is to me an endgame pairing to the Utopia, and the Abyss works better with an even "tighter" signature which the 845 happily provides.

Not my words - I've never heard either, and I'm not sure how people can accurately compare tube amps with different tubes in them - how do you evaluate an amp who's objective is to be as true to the tubes as possible without knowing the sound of that particular set of tubes. Maybe some people do have an intimate knowledge of a number of sets of tubes and can use the same headphones to test every time, but I'd guess that's often not the case. Anyway... Like I said, I was just mentioning that I'd heard the same thing as Benny-x.
Full disclosure, I think the other member (who doesn't post on here anymore) was not really a fan of the woo house sound - didn't particularly like the 234's or anything - I believe he had tried all their amps and didn't like any of them except for the wa33 std edition (I assume upgraded tubes). So maybe if you ARE a fan of the woo sound, the wa33 standard may not be your cup of tea? I may be paraphrasing - his comments were made a while ago many pages back.
As I have said a hundred times (and always fallen on deaf ears) that shows the importance of auditioning things for yourself.

 

[matthewhypolite]

Not my words - I've never heard either, and I'm not sure how people can accurately compare tube amps with different tubes in them - how do you evaluate an amp who's objective is to be as true to the tubes as possible without knowing the sound of that particular set of tubes. Maybe some people do have an intimate knowledge of a number of sets of tubes and can use the same headphones to test every time, but I'd guess that's often not the case. Anyway... Like I said, I was just mentioning that I'd heard the same thing as Benny-x.
Full disclosure, I think the other member (who doesn't post on here anymore) was not really a fan of the woo house sound - didn't particularly like the 234's or anything - I believe he had tried all their amps and didn't like any of them except for the wa33 std edition (I assume upgraded tubes). So maybe if you ARE a fan of the woo sound, the wa33 standard may not be your cup of tea? I may be paraphrasing - his comments were made a while ago many pages back.
As I have said a hundred times (and always fallen on deaf ears) that shows the importance of auditioning things for yourself.

Not everyone is in the position of being able to audition themselves and rely on the opinions of those of us here who are. I myself fall into that category and really appriciate the opinions and writeups of many on the forum to help guide my decision.

It's because of that I try my best to provide as much information and be as transparent as possible in my contributions to help those in a similar position.

 

[tholt]

Not everyone is in the position of being able to audition themselves and rely on the opinions of those of us here who are. I myself fall into that category and really appriciate the opinions and writeups of many on the forum to help guide my decision.

+1

 

[mulder01]

That's all well and good if there's consistency in opinions - if we all heard the same thing then yeah, sure, that's a great way of doing things. I have found in the past that 90% of users can report a significant improvement/ a 'night and day' difference with a product that I am 100% confident I would fail a blind test because I found the difference to be so small, if anything at all. I remember back in my pre-abyss days people raving about the LCD3's bass but after listening to them, I thought it was entirely missing compared to the LCDX.
Let's be real. If you can afford a $20k amplifier for your headphones, you can afford a plane ticket to go anywhere in the world and listen to at least 2 contenders side by side. I dunno what the prices of plane tickets are for you, but from Australia, you can go anywhere in the world and back for under $1500 USD. If you get to compare just 4 $20k pieces of equipment on your trip, you may end up liking something that costs less even more than the other things you've bought and sold because of head fi recommendations. Fair enough if your budget is $199, but at this price level, there is no excuse not to audition yourself. If you were tossing up whether or not it's worth going for the wa33 or the wa33 elite for example, You could know for sure for the price of one set of tubes, and might save yourself $7k in the process. There ain't nobody demoing a wa33 near me, but if I was in the market for one, I sure as crap wouldn't buy one blind.

 

[matthewhypolite]

Money isn't the only issue, there is this precious thing called time and availability, not everyone can jsut pick up and fly off to go audition something whenever an audition is available.

Ive never even been to a CanJam, not because I can't afford to go. It's because there's this thing called life I need to also attend to lol. And when I do travel, it's with family for vacation.

I hope one day my schedule does line up where I can go audition some stuff. But your entire premise is flawed, what are you even doing on the forums if folks opinions are meaningless?

Anyways, to each his own.

When the planets align and I can find time to fly off and audition several different high end dacs I'll let u know. In the mean time, ima keep reading and guide my decision from an intelligent distilling of opinions, and lend weight to the ones that favor my listening preferences.

Hasn't failed me yet

 

[mulder01]

I've learned to treat the forum as a chat room rather than a place for factual research. I bet the number of people that have bought and sold Utopias, Daves, Ragnaroks and the like, because they bought off head-fi community hype would be staggering if you could get honest information out of people.
If you're tossing up between $30k dacs then I would make time - same as you make time to spend probably thousands of hours with your gear. If you were as pressed for free time as you say, then you would have no time for your gear and it would be pointless owning it.
You're not that far from the 'States - you could make it a one day trip if you wanted. If your wife and family are understanding enough to let you spend $100k on headphone gear, then I'm sure you could swing a weekend away.
On top of differences in subjective opinions, when you're talking products of that calibre, you don't know who has a vested interest in what, and who's friends with who, and who just gushes about their gear to ensure the maximum resale value. etc. etc.
As you say though, we all have our methods. Agree to disagree I think.