The FiiO X3 Thread UPDATE: Project Back On! Read the First Post for Information.

[ClieOS]

Quote:

pffftttt if you wanted great sound use a flaming cube c30/nanite n2 guts and put a new case, screen, firmware and HUGE battery! done and dusted!! however the x3 is going to be used by most in conjunction with an amp (probably the e11) people will be looking at the total cost of the player with amp for them and im sure fiio know this.

Getting a decent sound is one thing, getting the desired functionality is another. As good as C30/N2 is, the internal controller can't do anything 24/192. In fact, that chip can't even support anything but the on-chip DAC. As far as I know, It was one of the first SoC that got rejected on the X3 project simply because it can't work with WM8740. To tell you the truth, James have told me a couple of times that the X3 project is much riskier for the company than any amp project they have. They can cut corner and just put another cheap DAP out there but they have chosen a different path by offering something with more quality and function. As he had said it before, there is no point for FiiO to duplicate other companies strategy, product line, or success. They are trying to offer something decent and unique to the consumer but at the same time still profitable to the company. If they want to play it safe, the smart thing to do is to stick to amp making and maybe start making iPod / iPhone / iPad accessories. You can't go wrong by following Apple these days. I know the concern of pricing vs desirability is very real, but at the same time James does know FiiO is taking the chance with X3 to develop something different.
 
P/S: Actually Cube already did what you have said on the newer C60.

 

[banger]

I think that this will be a home run for James if he can pull it off. Don't forget, there are a lot of people out there, me included, that are dying for a dap with a true usb digital out.
This, because of all the nice portable amp/dac solutions available out there, that are half used on the road, because you can't use your laptop as a dap on the train or bus,
and most of today's dap's only have line out solutions, if that.
 
People who don't mind spending 200.00 to 300.00 for a higher end portable amp/dac, won't have any problem paying 200.00 to 300.00 for this solution, if it delivers on the
promise.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

 
Quote:

Dont worry, i know more than i was letting on in the post before, i said you are losing the DAC  FUNCTION.... NOT THAT IT IS NOT THERE, I had no intention of getting dragged into another lengthy head-fi debate,  all i was meaning to the poster was that there is not much that they need to add that would warrant a rise to around $150 $200, even in regards to chipset they are not looking to price themselves out the market, you obviously have the inside track on it all clieOS but surely you have to admit that 150 is getting right into dangerous competitive territory for what is (only and mp3 player (sum1 has a go at that its a joke) it is not the 2 coming of christ)
 
pffftttt if you wanted great sound use a flaming cube c30/nanite n2 guts and put a new case, screen, firmware and HUGE battery! done and dusted!! however the x3 is going to be used by most in conjunction with an amp (probably the e11) people will be looking at the total cost of the player with amp for them and im sure fiio know this.
 
I for one am delighted they have gone against using the rockchips, as while i actually like their sound interface and firmware is huge for me, it doesn't have to look pretty just do what you say on the tin without glitches and crashes and im fine.  I do still anticipate some bugs when the x3 launches and thats not really a problem as im pretty sure fiio are not going to abandon updates like most generic chinese players.
 
Anyway long story short anything over 120 is pushing it fiio.

Ehh, not sure you do...  Development costs can be huge (especially with Fiio outsourcing the chipset solution, which includes firmware with very specific and demanding requirements), and they need to be recouped.  They're also adding a relatively large color lcd screen instead of the budget monochrome OLED screen, and a large, user replaceable battery to cope with the additional power needs.  There's extra buttons, extra switches, and likely a more complicated chassis thanks to the replaceable battery.
 
Also, remember, we get coaxial S/PDIF output (in addition to line-out and the headphone amp), which is the first player in a long time (whatever iRiver it was, and that can't even play FLACs...) to have digital output.  That alone may be a total killer feature for those looking to integrate a portable player into a separates setup.
 
That's not to mention the DAC and amp, which are superior to essentially everything except the Hifiman players (and I don't know about the DACs, but if I remember correctly, the built-in amp is more powerful than the HF-60x players).  Considering that the HM-601 is a similarly-targeted and configured player, but probably with inferior firmware/UI and certainly without the flexibility of the X3's digital output, priced at $260 - I think that a slightly sub-$200 price point for the X3 is very realistic and fair.  Perhaps as production ramps up, if the X3 proves to be popular, the price will drop somewhat with larger quantity part purchases and the tooling/development costs paid for.  But that could be quite some time indeed, depending on how Fiio have planned it.
 
Remember, there's the manufacturer's, distributor's, and retailer's markups to go through on all of the parts...  So, say, a $5 LCD that Fiio sources for the X3 may end up adding $20 or more to the price alone, and that's just in the per-unit manufacturing cost...

 

[BlackbeardBen]

 
Quote:

Dont worry, i know more than i was letting on in the post before, i said you are losing the DAC  FUNCTION.... NOT THAT IT IS NOT THERE, I had no intention of getting dragged into another lengthy head-fi debate,  all i was meaning to the poster was that there is not much that they need to add that would warrant a rise to around $150 $200, even in regards to chipset they are not looking to price themselves out the market, you obviously have the inside track on it all clieOS but surely you have to admit that 150 is getting right into dangerous competitive territory for what is (only and mp3 player (sum1 has a go at that its a joke) it is not the 2 coming of christ)
 
pffftttt if you wanted great sound use a flaming cube c30/nanite n2 guts and put a new case, screen, firmware and HUGE battery! done and dusted!! however the x3 is going to be used by most in conjunction with an amp (probably the e11) people will be looking at the total cost of the player with amp for them and im sure fiio know this.
 
I for one am delighted they have gone against using the rockchips, as while i actually like their sound interface and firmware is huge for me, it doesn't have to look pretty just do what you say on the tin without glitches and crashes and im fine.  I do still anticipate some bugs when the x3 launches and thats not really a problem as im pretty sure fiio are not going to abandon updates like most generic chinese players.
 
Anyway long story short anything over 120 is pushing it fiio.

Ehh, not sure you do...  Development costs can be huge (especially with Fiio outsourcing the chipset solution, which includes firmware with very specific and demanding requirements), and they need to be recouped.  They're also adding a relatively large color lcd screen instead of the budget monochrome OLED screen, and a large, user replaceable battery to cope with the additional power needs.  There's extra buttons, extra switches, the card reader, and likely a more complicated chassis thanks to the replaceable battery.  Each individual thing might not sound like a lot, but all the little things adds up.
 
Also, remember, we get coaxial S/PDIF output (in addition to line-out and the headphone amp), which is the first player in a long time (whatever iRiver it was, and that can't even play FLACs...) to have digital output.  That alone may be a total killer feature for those looking to integrate a portable player into a separates setup.
 
That's not to mention the DAC and amp, which are superior to essentially everything except the Hifiman players (and I don't know about the DACs, but if I remember correctly, the built-in amp is more powerful than the HF-60x players).  Considering that the HM-601 is a similarly-targeted and configured player, but probably with inferior firmware/UI and certainly without the flexibility of the X3's digital output, priced at $260 - I think that a slightly sub-$200 price point for the X3 is very realistic and fair.  Perhaps as production ramps up, if the X3 proves to be popular, the price will drop somewhat with larger quantity part purchases and the tooling/development costs paid for.  But that could be quite some time indeed, depending on how Fiio have planned it.
 
Remember, there's the manufacturer's, distributor's, and retailer's markups to go through on all of the parts...  So, say, a $5 LCD that Fiio sources for the X3 may end up adding $20 or more to the price alone, and that's just in the per-unit manufacturing cost...
 
Also, manufacturers can and will also look at it this way: What is my product worth on the market?  In the case of a high-quality niche player, if you're targeting to undercut the closest competing product by a significant margin (a minimum of 25% - while at the same time offering more features [excepting the lack of on-board memory] and better usability), you've probably got a winner.

 

[stozzer123]

Quote:

 


Ehh, not sure you do...  Development costs can be huge (especially with Fiio outsourcing the chipset solution, which includes firmware with very specific and demanding requirements), and they need to be recouped.  They're also adding a relatively large color lcd screen instead of the budget monochrome OLED screen, and a large, user replaceable battery to cope with the additional power needs.  There's extra buttons, extra switches, the card reader, and likely a more complicated chassis thanks to the replaceable battery.  Each individual thing might not sound like a lot, but all the little things adds up.
 
Also, remember, we get coaxial S/PDIF output (in addition to line-out and the headphone amp), which is the first player in a long time (whatever iRiver it was, and that can't even play FLACs...) to have digital output.  That alone may be a total killer feature for those looking to integrate a portable player into a separates setup.
 
That's not to mention the DAC and amp, which are superior to essentially everything except the Hifiman players (and I don't know about the DACs, but if I remember correctly, the built-in amp is more powerful than the HF-60x players).  Considering that the HM-601 is a similarly-targeted and configured player, but probably with inferior firmware/UI and certainly without the flexibility of the X3's digital output, priced at $260 - I think that a slightly sub-$200 price point for the X3 is very realistic and fair.  Perhaps as production ramps up, if the X3 proves to be popular, the price will drop somewhat with larger quantity part purchases and the tooling/development costs paid for.  But that could be quite some time indeed, depending on how Fiio have planned it.
 
Remember, there's the manufacturer's, distributor's, and retailer's markups to go through on all of the parts...  So, say, a $5 LCD that Fiio sources for the X3 may end up adding $20 or more to the price alone, and that's just in the per-unit manufacturing cost...
 
Also, manufacturers can and will also look at it this way: What is my product worth on the market?  In the case of a high-quality niche player, if you're targeting to undercut the closest competing product by a significant margin (a minimum of 25% - while at the same time offering more features [excepting the lack of on-board memory] and better usability), you've probably got a winner.

EMMMM yes thank you for the basic economics lesson and recap of the previous 52 pages blackbeard,  seriously guys, I came on to say what i had to say to the price of this thing more in the hope that fiio would keep the price down and by a few more people saying yeh actually 150 / 200 is too much then we may just get a better deal than the process of market costing you mention.   Many many pages back in this thread i believe cost is one of fiio's main concerns.
 
"ehhh not sure you do" -   ...... this is not a pissing contest, what a bloody stupid way to start your statement, i honestly read your post saying 'yeh...no crap to every point' so well done..... or maybe you shouldnt jump on sum1 for not wanting to create a post like yours and get dragged of point as usually happens.
 
 
Anyway, end of the day i want a win for fiio here as bad as anybody the are a great company producing great products at great prices.......why stop now,  sure they are wanting to diversify and throw all the extras in but where there main market will stand is in awesome portable sound quality at a GREAT PRICE, all your digital line outs etc come secondary James knows this unless they have diverted from the original goal.
 
ClieOS is right they did it with the c60 but it was terribly implemented in construction, firmware and of course....... they left out expandable memory as im sure you know. I did get a listen to one of my friends from shanghai and it was great sounding (about same as my c30) but he says the interface and firmware is driving him crazy.  Any word on the new Teclast (t52?) players where you are?
 

 

[radiohead7]

Its shocking that anyone on here would complain about the price of a product that has a built in amp, plays 24/192, has a digital out,custom chipset,2 wolfson dacs, and gapless for 200-250. Hifiman cost alot more than that, cowon you get less for the same price, the sflo2 is also the same price with no digital out, no intergrated amp, no 24/192, and no digital out. This being said I would still like to hear it to make sure that it is a quality product but I have confidence with the reputation of the company's prior products that it will be a will winner. I would still like to see some pictures and know if there is a pre-order price though.

 

[Lubanja]

seems like I may go for this thing. I love my HM601 but would like to experience more than just this audio player

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Its shocking that anyone on here would complain about the price of a product that has a built in amp, plays 24/192, has a digital out,custom chipset,2 wolfson dacs, and gapless for 200-250. Hifiman cost alot more than that, cowon you get less for the same price, the sflo2 is also the same price with no digital out, no intergrated amp, no 24/192, and no digital out. This being said I would still like to hear it to make sure that it is a quality product but I have confidence with the reputation of the company's prior products that it will be a will winner. I would still like to see some pictures and know if there is a pre-order price though.

All DAPs have a built in amp.  I got the 2gb Sflo2 for $110.  If it ticks past $149 I'll think about it.  Over $199 I'm out.  Pretty sure my QA350 has more sonic potential at that point despite the inconveniences.     
 

 

[Br777]

cant  wait to hear what people say when comparing the digital out on the x3 to using the CLASolo coax digital out (the way that uses it as a transport and bypasses its dac).
 
 

 

[justie]

Hoping this thing will support 2tb SDXC cards in the future because with that space will not be a problem anymore

 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

cant  wait to hear what people say when comparing the digital out on the x3 to using the CLASolo coax digital out (the way that uses it as a transport and bypasses its dac).

Does the X3 not bypass it's DAC via digital out?  I thought Apple was the only one that had 'special needs' in that regard.
 
Quote:

Hoping this thing will support 2tb SDXC cards in the future because with that space will not be a problem anymore

 

That's the idea.  With SDXC internal storage is a complete waste of time and money.
 

 

[Br777]

 
i wasnt clear . i meant digital out on x3 vs ipod with CLAS.
 
my point being ALO claims that using other digital outs, such as say an ipad with a camera kit, wont compare to the solo b/c it uses asynchronous USB to reduce jitter.  So i am wondering if a player like the x3 with a digital out will produce results comparable to an ipod using the solo's digital transport feature.
 
 

 
Quote:

Does the X3 not bypass it's DAC via digital out?  I thought Apple was the only one that had 'special needs' in that regard.
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

 
i wasnt clear . i meant digital out on x3 vs ipod with CLAS.
 
my point being ALO claims that using other digital outs, such as say an ipad with a camera kit, wont compare to the solo b/c it uses asynchronous USB to reduce jitter.  So i am wondering if a player like the x3 with a digital out will produce results comparable to an ipod using the solo's digital transport feature.

Right.  Perhaps I'm incorrect but asynchronous or synchronous USB isnt a concern wrt the X3 right?  The issue w/ Apple devices is they have no native LO implemented in the design or am I wrong?  
 
Maybe you are actually talking about using the X3 into the JH3A digital USB?
 
Anyways, I thought jitter was a non-issue w/ coax digital unlike optical.  Apart from that, if the DAC is not being used prior to coax out, what are the potential issues the X3 would have to worry about compared to what the CLAS does?
 

 

[Br777]

Quote:

Right.  Perhaps I'm incorrect but asynchronous or synchronous USB isnt a concern wrt the X3 right?  The issue w/ Apple devices is they have no native LO implemented in the design or am I wrong?  
 
I'm not sure what youre saying here... but you do have to use an LOD for line out with an apple device
 
Maybe you are actually talking about using the X3 into the JH3A digital USB? - never thought of that nor do i know if its possible.  i was planning on using the digital out of the x3 via a mini to mini into the digital in on the jh3a since both utilize a 1/8" jack.
 
Anyways, I thought jitter was a non-issue w/ coax digital unlike optical.  Apart from that, if the DAC is not being used prior to coax out, what are the potential issues the X3 would have to worry about compared to what the CLAS does?
 
my understanding is: they say the jitter would come from the source such as the ipod, or the x3. therefore since the CLAS uses asynchronous USB it cleans it up.  For example when i asked ken if the CLAS would outperform an ipad with a camera kit  if i fed them both through a device such as the JH3A and used the coax transport on the CLAS (because the JH3A has its own DAC) - his answer was yes, because of the CLAS's asynchronous USB cleaning up the jitter.    This is the kind of claim i am curious about. 

 
 

 

 

[Anaxilus]

Ah, I believe his claim was specific to the iPad camera kit.  That is a USB solution so mode of transport is a concern over USB wrt jitter.  As far as I know using coax digital will avoid those issues or they aren't applicable to the X3.  Until someone can chime in otherwise the CLAS is simply for people tethered to an iDevice and offers no more advantage over something like the X3 or iRiver feeding into an external DAC.
 
Apart from UI, I too would like to know if there is some audible advantage going iDevice>CLAS>JH3A vs. X3>JH3A.