[Snly84]

So I don’t necessarily want to see the 2.5 mm jack go away because it’s perfect for small IEM. I consider the 4.4 mm Jack to be more of a full-size headphone jack.

Absolutely agree with you!

 

[mgoodman]

LoL, I begged and begged for Pentacon connector, but I’m making things work with adapters. It’s good to know it may have a future with you.
...
So I don’t necessarily want to see the 2.5 mm jack go away because it’s perfect for small IEM. I consider the 4.4 mm Jack to be more of a full-size headphone jack.

So THREE balanced outputs? (scratching head). 2.5mm does seem flimsy (it didn't 2 years ago, LOL). We don't have space for three jacks, man, you are killing me

 

[newworld666]

Last point for now. Do you guys need even more power than what you have in the HiFi-M8V2? Something has been cooking in the lab, so I'm curious if there's interest. No preorders this time, only the real thing

Thank you to take time for such explanations.. It was worth to it.

To tell the truth .. with my HEDDphone by HEDD, theoretically, it should be already comfortable with 2x1.4w that the M8V2 provides, but sometimes power is still falling a bit short and even 100% on the hot side with a xlr4 cable is not enough with some DSD.
Though I am not sure that peak voltage is not more important to help to produce fast, clear deep impacts in low and ultra-low frequencies like desktop amps.
I think the iFi Diablo could be more comfortable though I have not tested it with more power available.

Then, it would be nice to get some more power, but LDAC BT can be a good way to go. Aptx is after all "acceptable", LDAC gives some more freedom as it could help to avoid usb-c cable which can disconnect quite easily.

 

[mgoodman]

So, if higher power output might mean higher noise levels as you mentioned while developing this product, then it may not be a good idea unless it can have a black background with more sensitive headphones as well.

The intention is to have one portable amp that has pitch black noise floor and works with everything from BA to planars. More soon.

 

[mgoodman]

...sometimes power is still falling a bit short and even 100% on the hot side with a xlr4 cable is not enough with some DSD.

...LDAC BT can be a good way to go. Aptx is after all "acceptable", LDAC gives some more freedom....

Looking at providing more power and much cleaner, too.

LDAC is a large undertaking, hoping the licensing matters will be resolved soon. It will have to be new silicon though, M8 will not be upgradeable, sorry.

 

[SDBiotek]

The intention is to have one portable amp that has pitch black noise floor and works with everything from BA to planars. More soon.

Looking forward to hearing more about it soon. Will it be an amp only (only analog input), or a dac/amp with an analog input? I'd love to see a portable CEntrance product like that.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

So THREE balanced outputs? (scratching head). 2.5mm does seem flimsy (it didn't 2 years ago, LOL). We don't have space for three jacks, man, you are killing me

I was thinking at the time that pre-orders started that 4.4 mm Pentacon was going to be replacing 4-pin XLR in the future, and it seems to be going that way.

If you had 4.4mm instead of 4-pin I would have had to buy a 4.4 mm male Pentacon to 4-pin female XLR, for use with my legacy headphones. So regardless of which connector you picked I was going to need an adapter. In this case it was the other way around, male 4-pin to female 4.4mm.

I would have loved 3 balanced outputs if possible. The 4-pin XLR is found on cables for a tons of legacy headphones and cables from over the past 10 years, with people hanging onto their gear for years, so even Sennheiser has put all three (1/4”, 4-pin XLR, and the newer 4.4mm) on their own headphone amp for the past several years. But they only ship their flagship headphones with 1/4” and 4.4mm cables.

Last time I checked HiFiMan also sells their flagship headphones with 1/4” and 4.4mm plugs. But Focal still uses the 4-pin XLR plug on the cables with some models (no 4.4mm). So it makes it hard to decide which full-size jack to include on today’s amps. I’m certainly not a fan of the 1/4” jack at all - balanced seems to be the best way to go these days, for full size high-end headphones at least.

I should note however, that adapting a headphone with a 3.5 mm plug to use in a 1/4 inch jack without loss of sound quality is easier to do with a solid adapter than an adapter that allows plugging a 1/4” cable into a 3.5 mm jack. Anytime you need an adapter that uses wire or cable between the two connectors it’s an opportunity for hurting the sound. I end up having to buy the best 1/4” to 3.5mm, in order to avoid loss in sound quality with an adapter and that adds up.

 

[SDBiotek]

A balanced output-only device will limit sales to a much smaller customer base. Having a standard single-ended output, 4.4 Pentagon, and a 4-pin XLR would be a lot more versatile.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

A balanced output-only device will limit sales to a much smaller customer base. Having a standard single-ended output, 4.4 Pentagon, and a 4-pin XLR would be a lot more versatile.

if you were referring to my post, I agree I would not want balanced-only as well. I just think the 1/4” jack is not my favorite on a portable device, because a large and heavy Neutrik plug can be a nice long lever to bend and break the device while mobile. The 3.5mm and 4.4mm jack seems more versatile because the tiny solid adapters that take a cable to 1/4” for a full size amp affect the sound less, and the plug barrel in general with adapter is still smaller.

While I’m talking about all the standards, I should mention that a balanced 3.5mm jack can be used with single ended headphone (no microphone). That format came with my old HiFiMan HM-801 and current HM-901 DAP, but I don’t know anyone else that included a 3.5mm balanced TRRS jack. My only balanced headphones with 3.5mm were the RE-600 that I got with the 801. So the 801 and 901 were used mostly with 3.5mm single ended headphones with no issues. I bought a couple of 2.5mm TRRS female to male 3.5mm TRRS adapter but never actually used them to try my other balanced IEM with a 2.5mm plug.

Also, my only two amps with a 4.4mm jack are the portable HiFiMan R2R2000 and Palab M1-mini, which can drive full size headphones pretty well, but also drive IEM with a black background. I have the proper 90 degree solid adapter for the 2.5mm plugs to work in 4.4mm jacks.

One jack standard that never got popular was mini-XLR, which is less common than the RSA jack. But, all of my Moon Audio cables terminate in mini-XLR and I use a multitude of 6-12” mini-XLR pigtails (with the same cable material) to install whatever plug I need at the time. I can adapt the mini-XLR plug to RSA plug or 2.5mm, 3.5mm, 4.4mm, 1/4” (6.5mm), and 4-pin XLR. I also bought a 4-pin XLR to 4.4mm female to use my 4.4mm headphones on a wider variety of XLR amps such as my Eddie Current ZDT, HiFiMan EF-6, HiFiM8 V1 and V2, and Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon.

Most of my pigtails are using Silver-Dragon cable, but the 1/4” and 4.4mm pigtails are black-dragon cable to match the cable type on my HD-800s and HE-1000se. I have balanced silver-dragon cables for my Westone MMCX connectors, HE-560/HE-6, and Edition-X/HE-1000 V1. I had silver-dragon cable for my LCD-2 v2 but converted it to the HE-1000 V1 plugs when I sold the Audeze.

My favorite solid adapters for going between 2.5mm, 3.5mm, and 4.4mm sizes are from ddHiFi. I also have a solid Cavalli Audio 4-pin to 2.5mm jack, and a Moon Audio 1/4” to 2.5mm jack, so my 2.5mm balanced IEM can be used on full size amps that have low noise (in my case, everything but the EF-6).

I almost collect adapter like some people collect silver spoons and shot glasses

 

[SDBiotek]

if you were referring to my post, I agree I would not want balanced-only as well. I just think the 1/4” jack is not my favorite on a portable device, because a large and heavy Neutrik plug can be a nice long lever to bend and break the device while mobile. The 3.5mm and 4.4mm jack seems more versatile because the tiny solid adapters that take a cable to 1/4” for a full size amp affect the sound less, and the plug barrel in general with adapter is still smaller.

While I’m talking about all the standards, I should mention that a balanced 3.5mm jack can be used with single ended headphone (no microphone). That format came with my old HiFiMan HM-801 and current HM-901 DAP, but I don’t know anyone else that included a 3.5mm balanced TRRS jack. My only balanced headphones with 3.5mm were the RE-600 that I got with the 801. So the 801 and 901 were used mostly with 3.5mm single ended headphones with no issues. I bought a couple of 2.5mm TRRS female to male 3.5mm TRRS adapter but never actually used them to try my other balanced IEM with a 2.5mm plug.

Also, my only two amps with a 4.4mm jack are the portable HiFiMan R2R2000 and Palab M1-mini, which can drive full size headphones pretty well, but also drive IEM with a black background. I have the proper 90 degree solid adapter for the 2.5mm plugs to work in 4.4mm jacks.

One jack standard that never got popular was mini-XLR, which is less common than the RSA jack. But, all of my Moon Audio cables terminate in mini-XLR and I use a multitude of 6-12” mini-XLR pigtails (with the same cable material) to install whatever plug I need at the time. I can adapt the mini-XLR plug to RSA plug or 2.5mm, 3.5mm, 4.4mm, 1/4” (6.5mm), and 4-pin XLR. I also bought a 4-pin XLR to 4.4mm female to use my 4.4mm headphones on a wider variety of XLR amps such as my Eddie Current ZDT, HiFiMan EF-6, HiFiM8 V1 and V2, and Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon.

Most of my pigtails are using Silver-Dragon cable, but the 1/4” and 4.4mm pigtails are black-dragon cable to match the cable type on my HD-800s and HE-1000se. I have balanced silver-dragon cables for my Westone MMCX connectors, HE-560/HE-6, and Edition-X/HE-1000 V1. I had silver-dragon cable for my LCD-2 v2 but converted it to the HE-1000 V1 plugs when I sold the Audeze.

My favorite solid adapters for going between 2.5mm, 3.5mm, and 4.4mm sizes are from ddHiFi. I also have a solid Cavalli Audio 4-pin to 2.5mm jack, and a Moon Audio 1/4” to 2.5mm jack, so my 2.5mm balanced IEM can be used on full size amps that have low noise (in my case, everything but the EF-6).

I almost collect adapter like some people collect silver spoons and shot glasses

I agree, in a portable device, a 3.5mm jack probably makes more sense. I also have far too many different adapters from over the years, including some of the old 4-pin Kobiconns used on the RSA, Hifi M8 mini, and some old ALO portable amps. On that note, I also have far too many old portable amps and DAC/amps. Having my new M8 V2 now means I need to part with some older gear. However, I'll still keep my older CEntrance portables for use around the house.

One issue that can come up with having a balanced input (if that is being considered by CEntrance) is whether or not the source devices use the Pentacon ground or not. The Astell & Kern DAPs, for example, require a special "pigtail' adapter, to allow using the 3.5mm for ground, when connecting the 2.5mm balanced out to an amp with a balanced input.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

I agree, in a portable device, a 3.5mm jack probably makes more sense. I also have far too many different adapters from over the years, including some of the old 4-pin Kobiconns used on the RSA, Hifi M8 mini, and some old ALO portable amps. On that note, I also have far too many old portable amps and DAC/amps. Having my new M8 V2 now means I need to part with some older gear. However, I'll still keep my older CEntrance portables for use around the house.

One issue that can come up with having a balanced input (if that is being considered by CEntrance) is whether or not the source devices use the Pentacon ground or not. The Astell & Kern DAPs, for example, require a special "pigtail' adapter, to allow using the 3.5mm for ground, when connecting the 2.5mm balanced out to an amp with a balanced input.

I almost forgot, but I have a dual 3-pin to RSA connector cable, so that I can connect a balanced RSA portable amplifier input to the output of my PS Audio perfectwave DAC MK2.

also have an adapter so let’s me connect any 4-pin XLR headphone cable to the RSA balanced output. The RSA F-35 Lightning actually does a decent job driving HD 800s, but neither my SR 71B nor my F 35 can drive the HE6.

 

[mgoodman]

I almost forgot, but I have a dual 3-pin to RSA connector cable, so that I can connect a balanced RSA portable amplifier input to the output of my PS Audio perfectwave DAC MK2.

also have an adapter so let’s me connect any 4-pin XLR headphone cable to the RSA balanced output. The RSA F-35 Lightning actually does a decent job driving HD 800s, but neither my SR 71B nor my F 35 can drive the HE6.

I'm sorry, you probably hear this a lot, Larry the cable guy Are we safe to ditch the 2.5mm then?

 

[SDBiotek]

I'm sorry, you probably hear this a lot, Larry the cable guy Are we safe to ditch the 2.5mm then?

That's the problem with standards, there isn't only one, lol. My vote would be to ditch the 2.5mm.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

I'm sorry, you probably hear this a lot, Larry the cable guy Are we safe to ditch the 2.5mm then?

That’s a tough one. I’d like you to stick with 2.5 mm TRRS for balanced IEM if you can. The IEM cables are light and not quite as well suited for a heavier 4.4 mm Pentacon plug. Typically you won’t see a lot of full-size headphones needing high power if they have a 2.5 mm plug.

HOWEVER, Pentacon is also important, and tiny ddHIFi 90 degree solid adapters to plug a 2.5 mm cable into a Pentacon jack are cheap at $25, readily available, and don’t hurt the sound. So, it would not be a terrible thing if 4.4 mm replaced 2.5 mm, UNLESS power was cut to protect IEM and we lose the ability to drive full-size headphones.

Assuming 4-pin XLR is also crucial, the question is whether to ditch 3.5mm or 1/4” jacks? It seems silly to have both single ended standards if there is not a hot-side and cold-side like M8 V2. And adapting a 3.5 mm cable to plug into 6.5 mm (1/4”) is easier with less risk of losing sound quality from the adapters. So while I hate 1/4” it might be more valuable than 3.5 mm.

 

[mgoodman]

That’s a tough one. I’d like you to stick with 2.5 mm TRRS for balanced IEM if you can. The IEM cables are light and not quite as well suited for a heavier 4.4 mm Pentacon plug. Typically you won’t see a lot of full-size headphones needing high power if they have a 2.5 mm plug.

HOWEVER, Pentacon is also important, and tiny ddHIFi 90 degree solid adapters to plug a 2.5 mm cable into a Pentacon jack are cheap at $25, readily available, and don’t hurt the sound. So, it would not be a terrible thing if 4.4 mm replaced 2.5 mm, UNLESS power was cut to protect IEM and we lose the ability to drive full-size headphones.

Assuming 4-pin XLR is also crucial, the question is whether to ditch 3.5mm or 1/4” jacks? It seems silly to have both single ended standards if there is not a hot-side and cold-side like M8 V2. And adapting a 3.5 mm cable to plug into 6.5 mm (1/4”) is easier with less risk of losing sound quality from the adapters. So while I hate 1/4” it might be more valuable than 3.5 mm.

All, good, thank you! Have you seen a $25 massdrop adapter that you plug into the 4-pin XLR and it gives you a 2.5mm female plug on the other end? Is that any good? If so, then it's a case to ditch the 2.5mm. Pretty clear on the other stuff.