[haloxt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjojoj /img/forum/go_quote.gif While we're (you're) at it, how do you evaluate the sound character of audio gear? What I mean is that there is so much talk about warm, flat, neutral etc. but to be able to conclude that a unit is neutral you would have to know what the original sound is like and compare that with the "sound" coming out of the unit, right? Is this possible?

neutral sound is sometimes described as a cymbal sounding exactly like a cymbal. A person's memory of what a instrument should sound like can come from listening to a very good sound system but can also just come from the actual instrument being heard in real life. I agree with you though, I don't like phrases like warm, flat, neutral.. because my audio set-up doesn't sound like any of that, it just sounds like crap ^_^.

 

[decayed.cell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandchak /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think that will be addressed, the problem being, according to Kingwa, he had ordered (and has in stock) 100 pcs of Chassis to keep the promotional costing/pricing as low as possible, I do not think these changes would be implemented before he sells 100 Compass.

Yeah I messaged him too and asked if something else could be used like Bitstream Vera Sans

 

[bjojoj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think reviews have a large amount of both useful and useless information. You have to be able to accurately wade through the incredibly subjective parts to find what you want. Some things are pretty universally accepted and those are the things I look for. I also look for things like quality of build to make sure the product will stand up to the test of time. When people start describing cables or tubes with ridiculous words like "danceable" or thing of that nature, I tend to ignore them. I also look at the gear people use prior to their upgrades. If someone has the same cans as me, I tend to weigh their opinions more. If someone using SR80's upgrades to SR325i and loves it, but someone who came from Sen HD555 doesn't like it, I would tend to give the SR80 guy more weight in my decision, because those are the cans I am currently using. Since audio is so opinionated and comparative, I might as well listen to someone who has similar tastes and comparisons. I will also trust people with lots of gear, because they have the ability to directly compare two products.

Agreed, but how would you go about finding neutral components (cd, dac, amp etc.) and what would be your reference? After all, neutrality can't be based on subjective listening, can it?
Would it be possible to compare the info on a cd with the signal coming out of a dac in some form of objective software analysis, using all parameters? But, how would we know that the signal stays unaffected on its way through to the analysis?
Is it even worth the bother trying to find neutral gear?

 

[bjojoj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif neutral sound is sometimes described as a cymbal sounding exactly like a cymbal. A person's memory of what a instrument should sound like can come from listening to a very good sound system but can also just come from the actual instrument being heard in real life. I agree with you though, I don't like phrases like warm, flat, neutral.. because my audio set-up doesn't sound like any of that, it just sounds like crap ^_^.

Great description, but just to make things difficult there are different-sounding cymbals, which makes it necessary to know what THIS cymbal sounds like and so on.
I guess you have the intention of changing the sound of your set-up from crap to something more enjoyable then

 

[bjojoj]

Decided to start a new thread on the neutrality matter, as I don't want to rip this thread.

 

[les_garten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sennsay /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmm, having just looked over the latter pages of this thread recently, there seems to be an awful lot of intellectualising and arguing to be right, and bugger all of allowing people of differing experience to just relate their experiences without it being judged. A point to make here; if I remember rightly, Kingwa told me that he and the team run each unit in for 100 hours before sending it out, right? That's a pretty good start on the burn-in process. Those big Nover PS caps do take a while to form properly, my own a-gd power supply took well over the 200 hour mark to really settle down. For me personally, the burn-in process of ALL of my electronics here has been a fascinating journey; my HDAMs improved out of sight in gobsmacking ways at 50 hours plus and continued to do so more subtly at regular intervals, the PIOs took 50 hour steps that are repeatable (PP has spoken of this many times before and I've heard it myself with every single unit). Both KHA I.5 and II amps changed dramatically on running in, same for the a-gd power supply and again as the bypass caps burned in. For those among you who don't hear any change at all, good for you, you can just get on and enjoy your listening straight away and not bother about wondering if you might enjoy the experience any more as time goes by. Easy really. I've enjoyed my own journey thoroughly. It's about enjoying the music, when you come down to it - that IS what you bought the gear for, right? - 'cos I sure as hell ain't going to spend $500NZD on a Compass just to critique it! S-Man

My observation here is that if this subject was provable, it would have been proven. If it is as easy to hear as you say it is. It would be a walk in the park to prove. There would be no argument or speculation. It would be trivial to set up a test for this. I think you know what I am talking about here. Sounds like a CANJAM fun event to me!!

 

[Pricklely Peete]

I don't know about others but I base my findings of neutral on the real thing in real time....something that needs time and experience to develop over hundreds of exposures to all manner of instruments, brands size shape and playing styles...There is no coincidence between those with extensive reference calibration (as I like to call it) and their age or experience which is why those with this experience should have a little more credibility than those without it...

Let's face it hi end playback is the never ending persiut to equal that of the live performance however flawed that line of thought may be given current technology....that being said that doesn't mean we can't continue to strive for such a thing.

IMO most people try to affix a ref point to a moving target and that is the first mistake. Live events are the only true measure of neutrality even with other factors making that judgment difficult (which is why you need to have direct exposure to said instruments where most of the negative factors can either be controlled or eliminated entirely). Up close and personal mitigates a lot of these negative effects. SO I say go to as many live small venue shows as you can, all genres of music...build up that ref calibration in your heads...pretty soon you'll have a good handle on how things should actually sound and you'll not forget it...ever.

How many shows is enough ? I don't know but I'm still adding to my total....(I've lost count actually....must be well over 1000 by now not counting rehearsals,studio time ,jamming around etc). It's also well noted that those with a predisposition to music and life long exposure to it use different parts of the brain when they listen or hear than others who only casually listen and play no instrument. A study was made of this using MRI , the results fascinating to me at least. The Professional musician is wired differently than the Layman who has no musical aptitude. What this ultimately means is yet to be postulated clearly AFAIK.



Peete.

 

[haloxt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif pretty soon you'll have a good handle on how things should actually sound and you'll not forget it...ever.

What if my idea of neutral sound was developed listening to my mom's untuned piano? My dad's violin playing didn't help much either.

 

[mbd2884]

Yep, DHL site says mine finally reached Ohio also. Hope it reaches here also on Monday

Curra did you have to sign for the Compass? Because that is difference of whether Compass will be waiting for me at home or I'll have drag my ass out to pick it up at one of their lame distribution sites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by csroc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mine appears to have made it to Ohio and was "processed" today. Hopefully it makes its way up here for Monday.

 

[les_garten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know about others but I base my findings of neutral on the real thing in real time....something that needs time and experience to develop over hundreds of exposures to all manner of instruments, brands size shape and playing styles...There is no coincidence between those with extensive reference calibration (as I like to call it) and their age or experience which is why those with this experience should have a little more credibility than those without it... Let's face it hi end playback is the never ending persiut to equal that of the live performance however flawed that line of thought may be given current technology....that being said that doesn't mean we can't continue to strive for such a thing. IMO most people try to affix a ref point to a moving target and that is the first mistake. Live events are the only true measure of neutrality even with other factors making that judgment difficult (which is why you need to have direct exposure to said instruments where most of the negative factors can either be controlled or eliminated entirely). Up close and personal mitigates a lot of these negative effects. SO I say go to as many live small venue shows as you can, all genres of music...build up that ref calibration in your heads...pretty soon you'll have a good handle on how things should actually sound and you'll not forget it...ever. How many shows is enough ? I don't know but I'm still adding to my total....(I've lost count actually....must be well over 1000 by now not counting rehearsals,studio time ,jamming around etc). It's also well noted that those with a predisposition to music and life long exposure to it use different parts of the brain when they listen or hear than others who only casually listen and play no instrument. A study was made of this using MRI , the results fascinating to me at least. The Professional musician is wired differently than the Layman who has no musical aptitude. What this ultimately means is yet to be postulated clearly AFAIK. Peete.

Well put.

But he most Neutral and true presentation of a CD is done by holding it up to your ear and listening. Everything before it became a CD added color, and everything we do to listen to it adds color.

How about the IC's and solder and connectors in the studio. The Spkr wires to the Near Fields used to master, the Model and Brand of monitors, what type of Mic's and Mic cables, the Processing done to the Mic profiles for the Vocals. The Variables are endless before the music even becomes a CD. And this has nothing whatsoever to do with Live performance. It's a studio. There's a guy or two in there making everything sound like they want it to sound.

To even mention Neutrality or Live seems pointless.

 

[Currawong]

By neutrality I meant flat frequency response.

A quick note: The sound is quite a bit different with the Compass warmed up. It is only a tiny bit rolled off in the high treble (possibly around 16kHz or so) which is my fault, as I thought that the C2C was slightly bright, so Kingwa adjusted the Compass accordingly.

Otherwise, it's sounding very good now.

I did try swapping a HDAM in which had 100+ hours on it, and there was a slight improvement.

 

[csroc]

So the Compass is designed to roll off the high frequencies a bit, or you just find it to sound less "bright" than the C2C?

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif What if my idea of neutral sound was developed listening to my mom's untuned piano? My dad's violin playing didn't help much either.

Obviously that's not a valid source....I'm talking pro level abilities...but as silly as your response may seem it's beneficial as a starting point in as much as you hear the base level SQ of the instrument despite the users inept attempts at mastery.

Peete.

 

[Currawong]

Kingwa told me in an email that the C2C had a very wide frequency response, 1Hz to 100kHz. I was having an issue with sibilance and thought that maybe the C2C was a bit bright. I imagined that the Compass would be the same, with the "soft" options allowing that to be tamed. It seems he tamed the sound and added a soft option, which was a bit much. Some of it probably has to do with my Denons, which I listen through a lot, as taming the bass in them made them a bit bright.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Quote:

Originally Posted by les_garten /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well put. But he most Neutral and true presentation of a CD is done by holding it up to your ear and listening. Everything before it became a CD added color, and everything we do to listen to it adds color. How about the IC's and solder and connectors in the studio. The Spkr wires to the Near Fields used to master, the Model and Brand of monitors, what type of Mic's and Mic cables, the Processing done to the Mic profiles for the Vocals. The Variables are endless before the music even becomes a CD. And this has nothing whatsoever to do with Live performance. It's a studio. There's a guy or two in there making everything sound like they want it to sound. To even mention Neutrality or Live seems pointless.

I disagree completely (all joking aside)......if you are five feet away from a string quartet in a small setting, no amplification...you are hearing the instruments as a direct source to your ears....there is no added coloration of artificial means...this a reference neutral moment and will give you a base experience SQ for each of those instruments you've witnessed that day.

Don't think of Neutrality in the literal sense, think of it as starting point for getting the fundamental characteristics of the instrument being recorded onto the track as closely as possible to what it really sounds like live.


Peete.