[paulchiu]

Is AK240 to Chord Hugo to iPhone 6 plus noticeably better than just Chord Hugo to iPhone 6 plus?
how so?
 
Thanks

 

[gonzfi]

What?

 

[goodvibes]

  Been comparing an AK240 with an AK240SS. Listening is exclusively with JH13Pros. I asked a friend to blind me on it because I feared I was playing too much into confirmation bias on items 2+ below, but results were same under blind testing and not subtle. Here's the short course:
 

• The AK240SS is impossibly heavy. It's not pleasant in a pocket. On the other hand, it's substantial. You're choosing to bring it because you want to be reminded you dropped three grand on a DAP and that you could brain somebody with it if need be. The AK240 still feels cheap for the money (especially the knob feel). The AK240SS feels substantial. Could the same result be achieved with a tungsten billet in the AK240? Probably. Paying more money for more weight makes no sense, but the notion of "it feels solid in my hands" surprised me, pleasantly. The benefits are all psychological here, but I find I prefer the heavier unit. Traveling with it on a plane, perversely, it's nicer when it's heavier since it's less likely to take a joyride on a plane's tray table. The case is nice, but it's kind of like "do you like Prada's virgin calf skin or distressed leather better?" The case doesn't really factor into it for me.
• I think the AK240 is more neutral than the AK240SS. The latter has more impact and weight to the bass. With some content, I really like this. With other, especially electronic music, it feels a bit bass-heavy and over-done. It's odd. Generally euphonic, but I don't think entirely true to life.
• The noise floor on the AK240SS is lower between my two examples. Blacker blacks and more definition.

 
If I had to make analogies, my experience has generally been something like AK240 : HD600 :: AK240SS : HD650 or AK240 : JH13 :: AK240SS : JH16Pro. I did not expect to perceive a difference and have been somewhat surprised. Have confirmed optical out from both players is something I cannot distinguish in blind tasting. Very surprising.

Sounds like they did something to the amp and/or line stage.
 
Anyone that doesn't think a bit perfect transport can make a difference hasn't experienced FW sound changes which is before the DAC or compared enough kit. Having a good theory doesn't make it so.

 

[flymetothemoon]

First of all, how do you know what a transport sounds like? You are hearing DAC and Amp, not transport.

If its bit perfect transport, it is all same. If you hear it differently, you are in the Matrix
Problem is, not every transport is bit perfect. Thats why some CD transport is more expensive than others, its the ability to read and compute to send all bits to the DAC. So in lower quality gear, you hear difference as it is not extracting all the data for the DAC. Then we need to talk about quality of DAC because thats what you are hearing.

There are many threads in head-fi that talk about this, especially Rob Watts, Hugo designer, who said ALL Bit perfect transport are the same, as long as it is actually bit perfect.

If you are a believer of Rob Watts why bother to challenge his saying just use it to quote anywhere you needed.

Over time once you've earned experience on high end audio you'd then able to provide your POV.

 

[Somphon]

If you are a believer of Rob Watts why bother to challenge his saying just use it to quote anywhere you needed.

Over time once you've earned experience on high end audio you'd then able to provide your POV.

I have been listening to high end audio for over forty years, you?

Are you an engineer? If so, please share more facts, not fiction or POV. At least i provided fact based on real life professional. Can You? Don't mix audiophile opinion in a forum with engineering facts, it only show your inexperience.

We were talking about science of engineering, but your POV is simply based on what you think CONSUMERS sought to buy high end CD transport. This is no different thank quoting The Simpsons to base your FACTS on the cause of thunderstorm lighting.

POV from consumers on electrical engineer is often fantasy, not fact.
Since I'm not an engineer, i need reference. So better to believein Rob than in you for sure... Did I hurt your feelings? lol

 

[goodvibes]

If you're not an engineer, you shouldn't argue like you are. I know many that trust their ears before their scopes. Just stop and let us get on with a friendly discussion. If you can't hear a difference. Good for you and your pocketbook

but it's extremely rude to tell others what they're (or aren't) hearing.

 

[Somphon]

  If you're not an engineer, you should argue like you are. I know many that trust their ears before their scopes. Just stop and let us get on with a friendly discussion. If you can't hear a difference. Good for you and your pocketbook

but it's extremely rude to tell others what they're (or aren't) hearing.

 
Well, I was having friendly discussion until I was insulted. I for one do not tell people what they can hear or not. LOL I have AK240SS version! I upgrade all my cables including USBs. (this might open another can of worms! )
That should prove this point. After saying that, I was consistently insulted by buy the SS, mainly from people who don't own one or never auditioned one. So its good we share. I didn't insult anyone. I was giving my own opinion that there was no difference, yet I was insulted. Maybe you should direct your comments elsewhere to keep this thread civilized. 

 

[goodvibes]

I agree that we should all get along 

but this set it off. "If its bit perfect transport, it is all same. If you hear it differently, you are in the Matrix". You clearly attacked his hearing. It comes down to timing and Jitter and how influential you think it can be with different DACs. 
 
 So you're saying that you have never heard a FW difference in a device. They're all bit perfect (to the same extent), measure the same and those changes are at the transport level. I found the opposite of you in blind testing (though your Hugo does a good job of sounding good with almost any source). To the point where I'd call the differences quite obvious in better home kit. Last I'll say on it since this discussion is for the sound science forum. Congrats on your AK. I'm envious.

 

 

[Somphon]

  I agree that we should all get along.

 So you're saying that you have never heard a FW difference in a device. They're all bit perfect (to the same extent, some V controls will limit res on HIDef), measure the same and those changes are at the transport level. I found the opposite of you in blind testing though your Hugo does a good job of sounding good with almost any source. To the point where I'd call the differences quite obvious in better home kit. Last I'll say on it since this discussion is for the sound science forum. Congrats on your AK. I'm envious.

 

 
Well we are not science engineer so we can share experience here.
 
Yes I do hear the differences. But I hear 2 type of differences. 
1. Ground noises - often we hear noises and think it is sound signature, its not. That's why a lot of people who are used to hearing low-end equipment think they have better sound stage than hi-end audio. They were hearing the 'space' which is really noise. These noise alter sound perception of sound signature while it only affect sound quality. By elimination the ground noises, one may think the sound signature changes. It does not. The signature is the same while quality has improved.
2. Sound signature - as with all gears, even among the same brand, each model will have its own sound signature. This, to me, is a matter of preference. that's why there are so many brand that are doing well. But this has nothing to do with being bit-perfect or not as it is about dac and amp section.
 
With traditional transport such as CD transport earlier mentioned, internal component is very important. That's why when you look at high-end CD transport specifications, you will see a lot of feature that deal with ability to correctly read the CD such as ultra-high-speed FPGA for digital processing and highly accurate signal pickup, high-rigidity, high-precision SA-CD/CD drive, Sophisticated signal processing technology assures excellent signal quality, two laser diode high-speed access mechanism , etc etc. Nothing about sound signature. Its all about sound quality to reduce noise, improve stability/reduce vibration, good laser to read all data without error and enough processing speed to process all the data that was read from the CD/SACD or other format. But all things are not equal in terms of component between brands, we hear the end result different. 
 
We are now in the digital world with sources coming from DAP, mobile phones, PC, Mac, streaming device. So a lot of these variables are no in the picture. But its a different kind of variable. I can hear the sound quality differences between my Samsung S3 and my Macbook Pro through USB port. But the difference I hear is not sound signature, its sound quality. (through USB, my S3 sounds better to my ears due to darker background noise, Macbook has a lot of ground noise). 
 
When using my Macbook, I get better sound quality running the USB through USB Isolator at 16/44 than without at 24/192. But I hear no difference when running USB Isolator and Optical (as both have no noise and producing the same sound signature)
 
While my original post on this topic is based on MY experience of using My optical (same optical wire) to switch between transport such as my Macbook and my AK240SS - through the same dac/amp in the same environment - I do not hear the sound signature difference.
I do hear tiny sound quality differences playing ISO or DSD if my Macbook is running many things AND my Audirvana settings SysOptimizer is allowing all the spotlight, time machine, usb, etc. 
 
Sorry a bit of topic, but I did throw in the AK240SS as a reference in here

 

[flymetothemoon]

  I agree that we should all get along 

but this set it off. "If its bit perfect transport, it is all same. If you hear it differently, you are in the Matrix". You clearly attacked his hearing. It comes down to timing and Jitter and how influential you think it can be with different DACs. 
 
 So you're saying that you have never heard a FW difference in a device. They're all bit perfect (to the same extent), measure the same and those changes are at the transport level. I found the opposite of you in blind testing (though your Hugo does a good job of sounding good with almost any source). To the point where I'd call the differences quite obvious in better home kit. Last I'll say on it since this discussion is for the sound science forum. Congrats on your AK. I'm envious.

 

Thanks Goodvibes for sharing your experience.  Even with high end transport, it can't be 100% bit perfect and thus they all have their own signature of sound.  Just one simple example...let's take a look at how many devices that dCS has offered prior to the DAC and you can see how one high end output still needs to be "perfect" before being converted.  Even different clock can affect the sound.
 
Let's make time for our music and not wasting time for being unfriendly in this forum.  That's not our job to teach anyway.
 
For the record, I'm no engineer of any kind just a humble audiophile.

 

[Somphon]

 
 
Quote:

  I agree that we should all get along 

but this set it off. "If its bit perfect transport, it is all same. If you hear it differently, you are in the Matrix". You clearly attacked his hearing. It comes down to timing and Jitter and how influential you think it can be with different DACs. 
 
 So you're saying that you have never heard a FW difference in a device. They're all bit perfect (to the same extent), measure the same and those changes are at the transport level. I found the opposite of you in blind testing (though your Hugo does a good job of sounding good with almost any source). To the point where I'd call the differences quite obvious in better home kit. Last I'll say on it since this discussion is for the sound science forum. Congrats on your AK. I'm envious.

 

I didn't see your editing. but reading below quote, this is not an insult to me prior to my reply? Let's not be selective in defending people and lets stick to facts please.
 
 

If you are a believer of Rob Watts why bother to challenge his saying just use it to quote anywhere you needed.

Over time once you've earned experience on high end audio you'd then able to provide your POV.

 
I'm not questioning that he hear things differently, I'm just saying, transport is reading digital signal, so how does one hear it? 
If you tell me you don't hear AK240SS over AK240, then its fine. I wouldn't disagree.
 
But this is completely different. He is saying he can hear 0101010101, The Matrix.. (its just a joke by the way)

 

[flymetothemoon]

 
I didn't see your editing. but reading below quote, this is not an insult to me prior to my reply? Let's not be selective in defending people and lets stick to facts please.
 
 
I'm not questioning that he hear things differently, I'm just saying, transport is reading digital signal, so how does one hear it? 
If you tell me you don't hear AK240SS over AK240, then its fine. I wouldn't disagree.
 
But this is completely different. He is saying he can hear 0101010101, The Matrix.. (its just a joke by the way)

You don't need to change transport to hear the difference...just change the digital cable and you can hear the 1010101 difference and that's the fact.  Why, I have no answer to that as said I'm no engineer of any kind.
 
Sorry if I have offended you.

 

[Somphon]

You don't need to change transport to hear the difference...just change the digital cable and you can hear the 1010101 difference and that's the fact.  Why, I have no answer to that as said I'm no engineer of any kind.

Sorry if I have offended you.

No worries.
I agree with you on cables, I change every cables I have and still looking to upgrade. Although this is not affecting the bit perfect transport issue. My original point before we got distracted was that all bit perfect transport must be the same, as it does not have or use any digital signal processing. So if two machine does not produce identical data as source, then it's not bit perfect hence you will hear the difference. What ever the cause it may be such as jitter etc.

Here is a short read http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/BitPerfect.htm

So, to my ears, I can't hear difference of my AK240SS optical out as my MacBook Pro optical out at same bit rate using all other component being the same.

 

[Currawong]

Guys, please don't be abusive. 
 
FWIW, when using the AK240 as a DAC I noticed a tiny improvement switching from a regular micro-USB cable to using my Oyaide d+ Neo with an adaptor, but only when listening to excellent recordings. I should try my USB isolator. 
 
The more significant difference with the USB cables though was when transferring music. A regular USB cable was unreliable, but the Oyaide or the Black Dragon I have now were more reliable. I think the mediocre Android File Transfer from Google is to blame.

 

[b0ssMax]

Currawong , what adapter are you using? Usb b to micro usb? Do you have a link?